Death of the 125 - what will be the last 125 year?

[DougRoost]

None on the street, but we're not talking about general 2 stroke trailbike here, either. I know 2 road racers who have given up their 1000cc 4 strokes for small 2 strokes to get back to the fun, lightweight bikes they got into the sport for in the first place. Not sure where they get them but they're still available (probably that "closed course" clause again). Yes, the KDX-type bikes are going away, but that doesn't mean the AMA has to aggressively force them out of racing.

In fact, I was at the WORCS race in Austin today and Ty Davis and many of the other guys who often ride 4 strokes were on 2 strokes. I asked Ty why he was on the YZ250 and he said this course wasn't that large and he just didn't want to carry all the extra weight around. (Bobby Bonds won on a KX250, Nathan Woods took 2nd on his YZF450, Destry Abbott took 3rd on his KX250, and Ty Davis took 4th on his YZ250.)

 

[racer 187x]

You forgot KTM!

 

[factorykx125]

...how many two-stroke street bikes do you see on the streets these day factorykx125??

Yea but you still see them racing the gp's and all the other streetbike races. I dont think they will stop the racing or atleast hopefully not. But the ama would make so much more money off of the die hard dingers that want to ride. they will have to get an ama card just to ride thier bike. They could use this just to make some money. I love my two strokes and I couldnt imagine the day they are gone and not there. My local track will sound dull and boring with just the sounds of the four strokes in the air. Now everyone had to admit that when you pull up to a track and they are racing the two strokes and 4 strokes, that the sound is just awesome. Is the whole banning thing over the emmisions and sparks or something else, I'm kind of left in the dark right now. If any one would explain this whole thing to me Id really be gratefull.
R.J.
P.S. Does any one live in new jersey and would like to find out some good places to ride.

 

[2smoke]

The two stroke classes are the 250 and 125 GP Road Racing races. The 250 GP classes contract runs out in 2006. There already is much talk about replacing it with a 600cc based MotoGP style class.....125's may last a year or two longer but they two will be phased out. Nobody really sells two stroke road bikes. Aprilia phased out the 250 last year and Honda sold a small amount of NSR150's in Australia but I dont know if they're still around. In road circles two strokes mean nothing in terms of sales. Two stroke road racers are a dieing breed. Like all smokers. Sad but true.

 

[mxer842]

honestly...when the factories stop putting out new models of 2strokes then you will have what 5 maybe 10yrs before the used bike market starts to dry up as well and these bikes will no longer be competitive, as if they are now, and will be more of a novelty item to have in your garage.... you wouldn't show up at your riding spot on a 1979 cr125 and i doubt you'll be doing the same with your 2003 125 in 2020.

 

[D36 RMrider]

I hope the 2stroke stays around for at least 30 more years has anyone read the facts all the pollution from street and dirt bikes combined is like .000000002% its stupid what the government is trying to kill heck all thoes smog exempt school buses make more in a day than we do in a year. I think the ama should say if your on a 250 your in the 250 class 2 or 4 and fight thoes terroist at the epa!!!!!!!!

 

[mxer842]

come on guys its the government you're trying to reason with...these are the same guys who think magic bullet theory is good reasoning!!!

 

[Jon K.]

How did this get to be a government issue? The government regs haven't kicked in yet.

Does anyone really think that the AMA somehow had the foresight back . . . what . . . six years ago?. . . . to see the future, and alter the rules (how long had those rules been in place anyhoo?) so that all the two-strokes would be dead just in time for, and to suit the purposes of the EPA regs? The AMA that I know just ain't that smart!

Did Yamaha spend millions of $$ developing the YZ400 just to appease the greenies?

Maybe, just maybe, Yamaha did look into their crystal ball and saw the future. But their efforts to develope a four-stroke had everything to do with making corporate profits, and nothing to do with some vast left-wing conspiracy to eliminate the two-strokes from the world.

I need to research to find out how long the rules had been in place. Does anyone out there know? But my belief is that the four-strokes simply caught up. No-one orchestrated the take-over, it was a natural occurance.

This I do remember; AMA short-track racing was dominated by 250 two-strokes. A rule was in place to allow 350 four-strokes to run with the 250 two-strokes. This was back in 1974.

That's one heck of a crystal ball!

 

[DougRoost]

Jon, one part of your reasoning above doesn't make sense to me. You said you believe 4-strokes finally caught up, yet you point out that back in 1974 a 350 4-stroke ran with a 250, and now it takes a 450 4-stroke to run with a 250?

Whatever the driver, it's definitely rulesmanship.

 

[DougRoost]

BTW, can anyone explain to me how the new AMA unleaded fuel rule is the final death of 2 strokes like the mags are saying? They note this rule change at the beginning of their 250F mod articles, then the first thing Pro Circuit and others do to mod these thumpers is bump the compression up to stratospheric levels and say then now run VP race fuel. They end by claiming this is the same bike their race team will be running. Sounds backwards to me...

 

[Jon K.]

You said you believe 4-strokes finally caught up, yet you point out that back in 1974 a 350 4-stroke ran with a 250, and now it takes a 450 4-stroke to run with a 250?

Doug; I don't know what the rule was back then, it may have been 450 all along.

Here's a trivia question. Anyone remember the winner of the Houston Grand National short track back in 1974? No looking it up now!

Hint! He was riding an XL-350 based machine. Against all the two-strokes. And yes, that was quite a night! Thirty years ago.

Nothing new about manipulating CCs to offset percieved discrepancies in performance. To level the playing field. I would not dream of quoting specifics, 'cause I would surely be in error, but back in the day AMA dirt-track rules allowed bigger singles to run against smaller twins, bigger flatheads to run against smaller OHV engines. Still do for all I know.

You know, maybe there is something to be said about the AMA having a problem with two-strokes. Remember King Kenny winning Indianapolis on a 700cc four-cylinder two-stroke TZ? They banned that machine in the MIDDLE OF THE SEASON! after that win! Probably because the Harley Wrecking Crew bitched a bit too much. Now THAT is the AMA that I know! :eek:

 

[kdxtodd]

I agree with Dougroost. The mags always say that the unleaded fuel will disasterously effect 2-strokes...but only hurt 4-strokes a tiny bit. The 4-strokes run way higher com ratios than 2-strokes.

4-strokes didn't catch up, can a 250f run with a yz250?

 

[Lissa]

I like both 2str and 4str. I have raced both and owned both and developed a appreciation for certian virtues in either bike. When it comes to off-road competition for myself I have not found a better match then a 250 2str. Riders come in all shapes and sizes with different riding styles.

Fortunately so do our bikes.

And for all of the nay-sayers, have any of you actually read the official EPA regulations that will first come into effect in 2006? Truth of the matter is that the only off-road bikes that will be affected are bikes designed for use on public land, for example KDX's, EXC's, WR's(huskies), etc. Closed course competition only bikes will not really be affected since they are designed for a closed course only.

Besides if the manufactures misinterpeted the EPA regulations just like the general public did why would manufactures like Yamaha be in the process of spending R+D money on developing a entirely new engine and aluminum framed YZ125 for 2005 if they are going to be out of production in a year or two? Why would Kawasaki who happens to produce the least amount of consumer products out of the big four do a entire redesign of their KX 125+250 in '03 if in two years it'll be discontinued? These here are all clear signs that the 2str will not be leaving the market anytime soon. Maybe less development money will be invested into the 2str design dept, but I do not see a end of the road in the very near future.

What I do see is some of the clean technology that Honda use's on a 2str model sold in Japan and Europe possibly being developed for competiton models or maybe a development with the Ficht injection used on some of Kawasaki's popular 2str Jet Ski models.

As I see it this is a great time choice wise for off-roaders in what bike to ride. There has never been so many choices that are all so competitive and reliable as we have now! Now places to ride our very advanced super dirtbikes might be problem now and in the future.

 

[nikki]

don't sweat it, actually andrew was testing a four-stroke but apperently prefered the 2s, this may just be for sx though i dont know.

Andrew Short has a new interview on RacerX where 2-strokes vs. 4-strokes in the 125 class is a big topic... here's what he had to say...


You were slated to be a title contender in the 125 West, but you've struggled being on an RM125 in a four-stroke-dominated class. What are your thoughts on the ways things have gone so far?
I think I made a big mistake in racing the 125. In the preseason races at Paris-Bercy and the U.S. Open, I was going really fast and quite well. I thought it would carry over to Anaheim, but it didn't. I got bad starts and I couldn't come from behind like I thought. I worked really hard, and I thought I was a title contender coming in. But as the series wore on, I kept struggling and I knew there was nothing I could do. Hopefully, I'll take what I've learned into next year and I'll be a title contender again.

What is your opinion on how the four-strokes have taken over the 125 class?
I think it's kind of stupid. I mean, riding a 125 is so much fun, and now they're not competitive. But that's where the sport is heading, so if you want to keep up, you have to be on the best equipment, a four-stroke. But it's sad to me that I may never ever get to race a 125 again.

Will you be racing the four-stroke outdoors?
Yeah. I went riding today with my wife, Jackie, and she has one, too. I think if you don't ride a 250F outdoors, you're going to get smoked … unless you're Bubba. I can't say I would be winning the West Coast, but I'm making sure I'm on one for outdoors.

 

[harryhuia]

the 2 strokes will never die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kevin winters]

Why would anyone want to get rid of 2 strokes? They are motocross!
When you have RC, Reed, etc. completely dominating on 2 strokes that is the testimony to how much better suited for motocross they are. I know that RC is going to be riding a 450 this year, but I bet that is not his choice, but honda's.
I hope they never go away, they are simply better bikes, lighter, faster, and with tweeking have enough power to do anything anyone wants to do!

 

[kevin winters]

Once again, as I have painfully discovered, it is not about the bike but the rider. To say that you will get smoked if you are not on a 4stroke is an excuse. RC, Bubba, Reed all ride two strokes and smoke anything with enough courage to get on the track. The reason you lose on a two stroke is because you are not fast enough to win!

 

[Y2Z]

yes but a 4stroke has more torque, so it could be one of those situations when you needed that extra bit of power to whip you out of that berm, it could cost you the race. but you are right, it is true that it is the riders fault he lost but i also think the 4stroke can give an advantage to some riders more than others.

 

[harryhuia]

If you have a big bore 2 stroke like a 250 or a 500 then you have the wicked power ban & alot of torque.


Ben

 

[kdxtodd]

I think that people have the misconception that 4-strokes have more torque than 2-strokes. well, A crf450 has more torque than a cr250. but a cr250 has more torque than a crf250. oh well, this thread is getting more pointless every day

 

[CMW]

blah blah I have ridden the cr 125 and blah blah

Long live the CR 125s!!!!!!

 

[nikki]

Well... the only true 125 riders, other than Bubba, to get inside the top 10 a few times in SX this year were Short, Millsaps, and Mills.

Short had announced that he made a big mistake riding the 2-stroke and that it wasn't competitive and he was switching to the RMZ for the nationals (before he broke his wrist).

Mills was rumored at the beginning of the SX season to be unhappy being chosen the 1 guy on the Factory Connection team to ride the CR125, and he has made the switch to a CRF250 for nationals as well.

And now Davi Millsaps has also made the switch to a RMZ for nationals. Here is a short piece from TransworldMX's Monday Kickstart yesterday from Davi:

Davi looks plenty comfortable on his new RM-Z250 four-stroke, and reports that he is glad to have made the switch. “Originally, I would have liked to have raced one in Supercross, too, but I broke my elbow on the first day of pre-season testing and didn’t have time to test on it and get used to the powerband,” he said. “Looking back, I think that with everyone on the thumpers, I am at a disadvantage in Supercross. Outdoors, it should be good for me, especially because I weigh in at 175 lbs. and this thing can really pull me up the hills.”


Looks like Bubba (and a few KTM riders) will be the last guy keeping the 125 2-stroke alive in the pro scene. And the KTM SX250F has been winning motos over seas when the bike keeps running....


On another note.... a bunch of the 250 2-stroke guys have also decided to make the switch to a 4-stroke for nationals including RC, Reed, DV, Ferry, Langston, Polvolny, Larocco (will race selected outdoor races), and Lusk (announced it this weekend before he broke his leg at SLC). K-Dub, Voss, Lewis, Huffman, Preston, Ramsey, Hughes, Thomas, Stiles, and Oehlhof are already on them when riding the 250 class. Really.... that pretty much leaves just the yellow and green guys on 250 2-strokes pretty much because they have no choice (Hamblin, Wey, Byrne, Evans). Although Joel Smets and some others have been doing pretty well on the RMZ450 over seas.

 

[mxer842]

I remember a few years ago on one of ESPN's broadcasts David Bailey said something very interesting, "You will know that the two-strokes are on their death bed when every factory has their top guy on a four-stroke."

 

[Jackpiner57]

What's a four stroke?

 

[kdxtodd]

its a special machine that moves 250lb 40 years old at a high rate of speed