Delayed PV

[OurMan Flint]

KTM 200 EXC - Performance Mods HELP please.

Greetings all,

I have heard wonderfull things about Eric Gorr's magic on the 200.

I have a 1998 KTM 200 EXC with FMF pipes.
I am looking for maintaining (increasing would be a bonus) the excellent bottom end but would like stronger mid range, but most of all more on top. However, I do not want to do more maintenance (like new top end's as often as a 125) therefore don't want to go too far.

I am considering a VORTEX AOF Ignition - is AOF Ignition the best route (or at least a good one)
Any help is gratefully received.

 

[socal scott]

You've hesitated on the ignition, eh?. I posted my results of the FMF AOF CDI on the 200 group a ways back. Motor pulls so hard all the way to extended top-end. You can't believe it's the same bike.
The DDK needle increased roll-on power as well as moved hit way down near the bottom-end.
I wonder if FMF still has any left...$100US. The two settings unfortunately feel very similar. I've read that the Vortex is incredible on the YZ 250F...$400US Ouch!

I tell you this, I go 190 lbs. and my 200 MX/C can loop-out going into 5th with little effort on hardpack using a very worn rear tire and the top-end speed is great in dry washes!
No joke, I had to adjust to leaning forward more frequently and sooner to keep the front end down on straights.
BTW, Gorr told me he can't do much for the power unless you use racing gas...more mid and top. He did let me know when the 212 kit came out that it would facilitate significant improvements everywhere...$375US including porting.
The carb wing I fabricated also is very affective in improving response/power from part to full throttle transition. No cost if you have a machinist buddy. Requires thin grooves on each side of the carb bore to insert thin stainless horizontal wing(cylinder side).

Delta-Force II or RAD-Valve. Did you see the RAD dyno-chart in the 200 group. Broad power, increased bottom(5hp) and extended hp peak. Costs more than the FMF CDI(by Wolff) and there's no way it could match FMF's transformation.


Doma pipe is supposed to be the sh!@, so stated one of your comrades. More power everywhere. He had like, 4 other pipes and a few silencers to use as comparision. $320 w/moto silencer I recall. To close in price to 212 kit.

 

[OurMan Flint]

Hi there, yes you're correct I hesitated on the FMF AOF.
Thanks very much for all the info, this is exactly the kind of response I was hoping for, lots of options compared.
Very interesting what our man Gorr said about not being able to do much without going to race gas. Also, the 212 Kit....does this also require rave gas I wonder ?
I am very friendly with a long time top engine tuner here in Ontario, one of the most respected in Canada and he has worked with all of the AOF Ignitions for last 10 years. He warned me off that particular one as there were reports of it being unreliable. He uses Vortex because his experience is that they are the best (and he can program them.....suits me !!). I contacted Vortex directly and they actually used an identical bike to mine to develop their latest offering. Also, they told me that they have a new and improved version about to hit the market.
....I'll let you know how that goes.
FYI - I got the hole-shot at a hare scramble on my 200 last year, that was against TWO 426s and some MX 250s......MAN they were pissed off !!

 

[socal scott]

Very cool, I read Watts did the same against an army of 426's. Third in the holeshot at Glen Helen and then gone.;)
The 212 kit would'nt require rave gas unless you requested high compression. He stated that KTM cylinder specs where good, so higher compression was the only avenue to more power.
I hope the CDI holds up, if not, I'll have to go with the 212 kit. Similar price to a regular priced AOF and my issues would be resolved...more torque and top-end. I wouldn't mind being a little lazier once again. Currently the thing revs so fast through the power, I feel like bigger gaps between gears would work nicely.

Do keep me posted as I will do the same. BTW, FMF won't reprogram my unit.

Later

 

[ktmrider0202]

I have a 200 mx/c w/ fmf grnly and powercore II silncer. I have a set of boyseen carbon fiber reeds an a no tool air cleaner w/ no toil air filter oil. I heard going to a 125 sx flywheel will make it rev father and faster. Right now my bike rips and when i save up some mony it is going to eric gorr for a little magic. i will tell you howit comes out when it is done. Might not be for a month or so.

 

[OurMan Flint]

That sounds good, keep me posted.
I have the same pipes and filter on my 200 EXC and it's great.
I did consider the SX ignition and/or flywheel, but I need to lug my tired arese around for the last 30 minutes of a Hare Scramble, so I like the torque of the current set up.
It looks as though I only have 2 choices, the 212 Kit of the AOF Ignition, so I can switch between screaming maniac and old codger.

 

[OurMan Flint]

CORRECTION ...

212 Kit OR AOF Ignition....

 

[thermal]

Hey...use the edit button.

 

[OurMan Flint]

Thanks .... will do next time.

 

[lawman]

hey flinty, i've modded my '00 for more, smoother power. sent you an email on the 200 e-group about the porting, but there's more to it than that. if you want details about the rest of it, let me know.

ps didja ever hook up the wer damper? if so, how do you like it? (i'm the guy who sent the bracket).

 

[socal scott]

Hey Lawman...don't hold out on the details. Maybe we all could get some more insite. It's hard to find results regarding more involved mods.

Yo ktmrider...while your cylinder is being done have a machinist whitle down that flywhl a bit. I still had good hook-up 'til I installed the FMF AOF CDI that is. Then I ended up needing to replace the 4 aluminum clutch plates with steel, netted out maybe to minus a few ounces I suppose.

Flinty...I suppose the 212 kit/porting would be all a stone stock bike would need other than who knows what jetting, but each of us has a bag of jets and needles. Whatcha think eh?

 

[ktmrider0202]

Thanks for the good idea about the flywheel. Ill keep it in my mind. How much more power does an fmf cdi box give a 200. Iheard i make it go like a bad a@@. tell me how it is. WHat gearing are you runing? thank

 

[ktmrider0202]

hey one more thing any of you guys try the thinnner base gasket that ktm has to offer they offer 7 different sizes. Right now my squish is 78 thousands. That is up there. Im thinking of dropping the suish to 58 thousand and that would be the limit for pump gas. That would take care of more end. Then get an aol ingintion to boost the mid to top end. Then turn down the flywheel for quicker revs and go down from a 48 (because it pulls it already) to 46. Thinks this sounds okay?

 

[lawman]

ok, here's the scoop: i think my goals may differ from yours; i didn't want a hit in the motor, i hate "hit". for my purposes, it just gets in the way, esp. after getting tired. i never race mx; i use the bike primarily for tight, gnarly enduros, so i was after smooth power from bottom to top. i had a gnarly pipe on my '98, but it took away too much top. so i had eric port the '00 for more bottom w/o losing all the top, & he did just that (cost $110). i wanted it still smoother, so i put on a steahly flywheel weight (~$100). i liked that even more, but i wanted a little more back on the top, so i put on a pro circuit pipe (~$150 with silencer used) & went to race gas mixed 50/50 with pump gas. when i last had the motor apart, i noticed that the reeds were beginning to fray, so i popped in a moto tassinari set i had laying around (the original, not the delta II, they're about $150 now). now it's just about right for me. it has nice smooth power from the very bottom, with a smoothed-out transition to "on the pipe" (it's still noticeable), & a screaming top end. i got in a drag race between corners with a yz 250 in a field at a hare scramble the other day, & he just barely pulled me (& i got him right back in the woods). as you may imagine, i have had to jack with the jetting thruout this process, & while it's pretty close, it may be just a smidge rich right at the transition from the pilot to the bottom of the needle, i just ran out of time (& energy) to mess with it. the bike has never fouled a plug & exc. for 1 fluke thing unrelated to the mods, has been absolutely stone reliable. all of the mods put together cost less than the pipe i put on my yz250f trying to make it useable for enduros.

 

[OurMan Flint]

Thinner Base Gasket

Hi,
you are spot on about going to 58 Thou' as pump gas limit.
The thinner base gasket will give you slightly better bottom end but also a slightly harder hit into the mid range.
I find that it works well and I'm happy with what I did.
I actually reduced my squish band to around 42 Thou and use a little high quality octane boost to bring the octane up to 95/96. This works very very well. What octane levels are available in the US at the pumps ?

For real performance I think you do one of two things -
Go to the 212 Kit from Eric with very mild porting (unless you want to run race gas, then go with a little more porting) OR keep your 200 stock and add the AOG Ignition.

 

[lawman]

yeah, my bike's mods really just smoothed out the power & extended it down (way down) in the rev range while keeping the top. the ktm guys seem to know how to get an engine to make power; if you really want to add a bunch of power, esp. if you want to avoid race gas, i think you are going to have to bore it out. or maybe the ignition really does add 5 hp at the bottom while increasing the top, who knows.

 

[OurMan Flint]

Who Knows ....

...but I will let you know.
It is quite likely that I will go with a AOF Dual Curve Ignition from Vortex.
It just so happens that one of the guys developing their system had his own 1998 200 EXC and used that for testing - he reports a reasonable gain in low end on the torque setting and when you switch to the power setting it revs like an MX 125.
I also have a very good relationship with one of Canadas top tuners and he has the programming equipment for Vortex.
I'll keep you posted.

 

[socal scott]

Careful men...the FMF CDI really makes the power super hyper (yipie!)unless you have the "Torque" setting re-mapped. FMF's doesn't increase torque it supposedly smooths things out...NOT! at least not with my existing mods. I go 190 lbs., so I can use the hyper most of the time.
Ideally, I'd like to have what lawman has, but Gorr at the time said there was'nt much he could do...hmmm. I think I'd go with delaying p/v rather than adding flywhl weight though.

Flinty, what will you be paying for that CDI? They retail for around $400US I believe, that's more than the 212/porting. Personally I'd lean to the kit, Gorr said he could significantly improve the whole p/b and no race gas! BTW, it'll rev quicker due to a lighter than stock piston.
I think the kit/porting would achieve what is really needed, a torque increase. That's what the issue is for me anyway.
I imagine the kit and AOF combo would be sick indeed. Okay Flinty wipe the drool off, bad for the keyboard. I have no doubt we could pull 250's on a regular basis then.
One of these days I'll do it eh, but I'd likely have to get someone to re-map to match the stock mapping in "Torque" mode to save energy.

Regarding gearing, I have the MX/C and run stock. I do this because of torque issue. Poor roll-on power makes me nuts, but may be livable after the DDK needle.

Maybe my final solution is Gorr's porting that Lawman received along w/hd mod for smoothness.

 

[socal scott]

Lawman, porting added torque way down low you say, this was a significant improvement for roll-on power coming out of lugging conditions?
Was the head modified?

BTW, have you tried the DDK needle yet? It leans the first 1/4 then richens for smoother mid transition. Specifically designed with 125 and 200's in mind.

Oh yeah, the RAD Valve has the 5hp increase on bottom not the CDI. I don't know what the CDI unit adds re: hp, but it pulls real hard from bottom to extended top. Not your cup of tea, but it sounds like you got the electric powerband that stays with 250's. My bros. '97 CR250 has been tuned to be electric and it is unreal. Other '97 CR riders beg him to set theirs up. So fast and low energy input. It is sweet. It has just the right amount of torque and killer top.
My mods. took me down a different road, but I'm only into it for $125. The Gnarly came on the bike and the carb. wing and lightened flywhl. were my bros. machining efforts. If I go with similar porting and delayed p/v maybe that will get things to smooth out. It seems that the increased torque would give the proper balance, it did for that hit happy '97 CR.

 

[lawman]

oh yeah, the porting made a nice difference. the gnarly pipe might be about the same, but imo it takes off some top (& costs more). i haven't tried the needle; i already had my bike running pretty good before i heard about it, using the #7 slide, & i never got around to redoing all of the jetting from scratch (ugh).

 

[*william*]

Scott, delaying the point at which the PV opens will give you more (percieved) hit, not a smoother transition. You'll have a nice bottom then WHAM! your on the pipe. If your going to mess with the PV to get some smoothies then you'd want it to open earlier, not later. But then again, you top is gonna suffer.

:)

 

[OurMan Flint]

Continued from a previous thread -

That makes good sense, more bottom then WHAM ...... and you know what, that sounds good for my riding. I need that good strong bottom for lugging through/up difficult stuff, but most of the time I'm slipping the clutch to to get the hit.

 

[*william*]

Not really 'more' bottom Flinty, but a longer bottom by delaying the PV opening - the bike revs longer untill the PV opens and then bam! you're on the pipe.

I think Scott had it backwards, as he wants an 'electric' bike. :confused:

If the PV opens sooner the transition from bottom-mid to mid-top won't be as pronounced - less 'hit.'

 

[OurMan Flint]

Yes, I understood that, I was just being quick and lazy with my response.
I may try it, not sure yet.

 

[Jaybird]

I find this very interesting since I have had some PV issues. I recently re-did the top of my '00 125sx. That I know of, I didn't do anything different. I used the same gaskets and I "think" I left the power valve assembly in the same position it was before tear-down.
My bike always had a great 'hit' and is very likeable for moto riding. But since I've done the fresh top end, I have noticed that the hit is comming on much later. It also feels that once the hit does arrive, it is even stronger than before (need to be ready for wheel lift strong), although that may be due to the fact that I'm carrying max. compression with the new stuff. I feel that with my type of riding, I can get used to the delayed hit very easily, but I am concerned with what caused this. I used the stock base gasket (.4mm) and OEM top gasket (1.1mm +ring)
Could I have jumped the timing on the PV rack & pinion to cause this difference?
Only thing I can think of that I did out of the ordinary is apply a small dab of high temp no-sieze on each pinion gear...could this be a problem?
What is the proper adjustment procedure for the PV's?