I hate four strokes now . . .

[actual mechanic]

90% rider, 10% bike!
One of the best quotes i have seen!!! Nothing quite like beating someone on their own bike...
:laugh:

 

[knowiam]

Bike for sale - never raced-4 stroke

 

[just_a_rider]

The only upside to a 4 banger is that you just pour gas in it and go, no mixing.

 

[AJ Waggoner]

I can see Pred out fishing with the local game warden now...

tossing out a stick o dynamite , and
watching the poor fish float up..

all with the astonished game warden telling him
"PRED you know you cant do that , i have to give you a ticket boy!! "

Pred then tossing him a lighted stick and asking

"yeah? well, you gonna talk or fish?"


BTW , ,all these threads are entertaining untill someone asks the obviuous
silly question...

4 strokes where given a handicap and advantage to allow developement into competitive scoots..
since at the time they wernt.

cool right? why not afterall?

now the tables have flipped ,the 2 stroke is out in the cold ,, and no R&D has been tossed at it at all in almost a decade.
(engine wise)


so fair is fair right?
lets give them a double displacement handicap ,
so the OEMS can develope them into competitive scoots..


any predictions on how that would turn out if allowed?
which bike, in its "class" would be the better choice?

see? this fishing isnt nearly as hard as its made out to be.. LOL

 

[wardy]

I guess that's why the AMA didn't allow the CRF150R in the mini class against the 85cc machines . . .

They got tired of all the whining too.

WOW pred, we do we start. ah hell, I am not getting into it but i will leave you a list.

1. affordabilty.
2. weight
3. age limits (wanting to allow 7 year olds)
4. level playing field
5. affordability
6. one brand building a bike not fitting any class and then expecting to bring in the bike to dominate, listen to thier own commercials.
7. past history and mess we have now.

etc, etc, etc,
there were more, but thats plenty.

wardy

 

[Lorin]

I seem to recall a post long ago asking why the four stroke column wasnt reffered to as "Diesel pigs and Weight lifting." Seemed appropriate at the time. Although the weight continues to decline, the maintenance (and repairs) seems to have become exponentially expensive (when a breakdown occurs) on the four strokes. I will continue to stand by my 2-stroke (most likely in front of YOUR four stroke) for some time to come.

 

[DougRoost]

I think it's all a conspiracy by Harley Davidson. They've made all these massive profits the last 10 years and have decided to grow market share further then must get back into the offroad scene. Having no idea where to even start to design a 2 stroke engine, they redirect some of that excess cash to the EPA, state of Kalifornia, AMA, etc. then wait for their time to spring onto the scene................ probably even managed a tax credit for the maneuver! And we KNOW they think loud is good :)

 

[RMZRyder]

You are wrong, here is a LINK to the article.

I'll cut and paste a few of the important parts for you.





All three riders were faster on the 500AF :cool:

Wrong article Chili, I will find it for you I promise, It was a CRF450 with 500 big bore kit stage 2 hot cams and put out 62hp the 2 stroke had 64hp both pro's were faster on the CRF, and they said it was reliable and rideable, it didnt blow up.

 

[AJ Waggoner]

Wrong article Chili, I will find it for you I promise, It was a CRF450 with 500 big bore kit stage 2 hot cams and put out 62hp the 2 stroke had 64hp both pro's were faster on the CRF, and they said it was reliable and rideable, it didnt blow up.

umm i was there all day.
I dont know about chili,
but I was certainly talking about the article you are refering to.. i have a copy as you might imagine?

Havnt looked at it in awhile, but your memory doesnt seem completely accuerate,
though of course they did not talk about a bike blowing up.

That doesnt change the fact that the CRF indeed did blow up,, big time.
I know, i helped push it back.

now if you cant take my wiord for it, i'll understand.

but just check out anybody who has run a CRF450 hard ,
that is bored to 500cc and moded etc,,
see how long it lasts?
the cylinder skirts are too thin and break off.
it's a fairly common problem on a *big bored* CRF450.
especially if erun hard by a pro or expert level rider.
its no secret,or big news , thats for sure.

I do think Chili is refering to a transworld article, and it had lap times as well that he accurately posted..
in that test at a mx track,,
all the pros were faster on the CR500AF.
and they had transponders..

The article you are refering to ,never took actual lap times.

*shrugs*

 

[RMZRyder]

I think I found the article I am referring to its in Febuary 04 DIRTBIKE magazine. Each pro tired out faster on the 2 stroke and both pro's had faster motos on the crf. Any way my whole point is that is a level playing field and I would'nt say the 2 stroke out performed the 4 stroke at all. No double displacement needed, 4 strokes rule. Why arent the fastest and most reliable racing machines 2 strokes? I have never seen a 2 stroke F1 car or a 2 stroke top fuel,why?

 

[Moose]

you're comparing apples to oranges.

what a motor needs to be competitive in MX/SX compared to F1 or Top Fuel is totally different. funny how all the guys riding 4-strokes are pro four stroke and ones that are riding 2 strokes are pro two strokes. funny how it works out, eh?

all i know is, rider vs rider. who cares whats under the seat.

a bike is only as good as the person riding it.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

I have never seen a 2 stroke F1 car

That's because two-strokes are illegal in F1 racing.

 

[RMZRyder]

Why do all the top open class hill climbers use 4 strokes.

 

[BadgerMan]

That's because two-strokes are illegal in F1 racing.

What are F1 boats running? Those outboards must all be four strokes, right?

:coocoo:

;)

Remember the 2 stroke 500cc GP bikes? Man those were sooooo cool!

:cool:

 

[Tony Eeds]

I seem to recall a post long ago asking why the four stroke column wasnt reffered to as "Diesel pigs and Weight lifting." Seemed appropriate at the time. Although the weight continues to decline, the maintenance (and repairs) seems to have become exponentially expensive (when a breakdown occurs) on the four strokes. I will continue to stand by my 2-stroke (most likely in front of YOUR four stroke) for some time to come.

I think it's all a conspiracy by Harley Davidson. They've made all these massive profits the last 10 years and have decided to grow market share further then must get back into the offroad scene. Having no idea where to even start to design a 2 stroke engine, they redirect some of that excess cash to the EPA, state of Kalifornia, AMA, etc. then wait for their time to spring onto the scene................ probably even managed a tax credit for the maneuver! And we KNOW they think loud is good :)

Naw, you are both wrong. It is the Sierra Club.

They pushed the AMA to change the deplacement limits so 4 strokes could overtake the 2 stroke in power. Now they are watching us slide into economic ruin trying to keep our 4 strokes running.

Soon, none of us will even be able to afford to ride when the bikes come with FI and everything is controlled by computer chips.

I think I will go to VD's, break out a cold one and sit with him, gazing at his CZ. What brand should I bring, Wes?

 

[VintageDirt]

I think I will go to VD's, break out a cold one and sit with him, gazing at his CZ. What brand should I bring, Wes?

Just show up Tony, I'll sell you a CZ when you get here. Then we can sit a look at your bike. Don't forget the Shiner.:whoa:

 

[FruDaddy]

Why do all the top open class hill climbers use 4 strokes.

I don't follow hillclimbing, but I have theories.

The extra weight helps with traction?
Bottom end torque reduce the need to slip the clutch all the way up the hill?
There is no need to turn, the extra weight doesn't hurt there.
It's dificult to find a 2-stroke with enough displacement to make over 200hp. If you think that I am just making up a number, read this article where Jeremy McGrath participated in a hillclimb and rode both a CR500 and a 2500cc HD:

http://www.dirtrider.com/features/141_0307_great_american_championship_hillclimb/

 

[AJ Waggoner]

Any way my whole point is that is a level playing field and I would'nt say the 2 stroke out performed the 4 stroke at all. No double displacement needed, 4 strokes rule

on that test, and it was subjective data.they "felt like" it was one way or a other

and you ignore that the CRF, once modded to perform as well, or equally,
blew up half way thru the day.
without the mods it would have been likely more reliable ?
but would it have performed as well?
all subjective.
certainly not compelling point to say "4 strokes rule" or "no double displacement needed"


Also while making your poiint you conveniently ignore the other article that did actual lap times with a lot more riders,.. and had the 2 stroke turning faster times,, in the morning, at noon, and at the end of the day as well.


hillclimbers dont use 2 strokes??
surely you jest?
its not a good way to make your pioint at all, and in fact highly favors the 2 stroke..

Its class structure,and what is availible in those displacents..

in the 200cc to 500cc you will see nothing but 2 strokes..
and the titles are mostly held by 500cc 2 strokes?

the top pros like dusty beer, travis whitlock and robbie petersen just to name a few all own and climb with 2 stroke 500's
as well as many other bikes they own.
it depends on what displacement the bike fits in..


now in the 750cc or 1000cc or unlimited type classes,
what do you expect to see?
how many people manufacture a 1000cc 2 stroke motorcycle engine?

so what engines do you think you will see in the 1000cc class or unlimited?
its not rocket science to figure out.

the funniest thing !!
robbie petersen ran a 1000cc 2 stroke in pro hillclimbing and won a few titles in the past believe ?? it had 2 CR500's engine in it.
he got third this year(or last?) in unlimited on it?

another item you might want to think about,,
robbie won the national hillclimb championship ,
in the 750cc class , on a CR500AF.. a couple years ago.
up against bikes with GSXR and such huge hp output 4 stroke engines
wonder how and why?


Its obviuos you love the 4 strokes..
i like them as well and feel every bike has its advantages and disadvantages,, its riding situation where it shines, and others where it is out performed but another type..


but displacement to diusplacement..
liming up to a power robbing hill..
you surely cant think that *4 strokes rule* in THAt particular situation.


in hard pack or very hard flat limited traction surfaces, yeap they diffinantly rule.

in loamy , deep mud or sand, big hills etc,, no they do not (if heads up)

*overall* it is more of toss up ?
as general fun ,racing or riding involves a lot of terrian styles,,
andsituations..
so pick which ones suits your style,
or perhaps more importantly ,the one you have the most fun on.



one last question:
why dont you see thepress doi a shoot out of equal displacements?

a YZ250 to a YZF250 for example,, and also a RM250 to RMZ 250 and so on..
theres been plenty of debate to make it an interesting artlcle??
but noone has ever done it with real lap times (not feel)
with a variety of terrian and riders..

the only article ive seen with any actual lap times was the transworld one that chili posted ,, ,you ignored..
as it had the 2 stroke turning better times in the pros hands.

anyway after all these years,and all the debate ,
not one really indepth article or heads up test,
with solid data,

dont you wonder why not?

think about it.

the answer isnt that cloudy ..

and the answer isnt that *4 strokes rule*

good bikes, even great bikes?
absolutely.

 

[Agitator]

This discussion is getting pretty extreme, for a group teeming with moderators.

*According to Oxford's dictionary*
moderator >noun 1 an arbitrator or mediator.

you're comparing apples to oranges.

What's that? A poster with some maturity? :whoa: :yikes: :cool:

 

[AJ Waggoner]

lol
moderators arnt allowed to express thier opinions..based on thier experience?

its was a moderator who started this thread *trolling* afterall.. ;)

 

[wardy]

we have to keep talking about stuff that matters to us, you see we are getting older and this is the only way we can remember.

Of course its a good thing we have the "moderator" logo, letting some of us loose with out it wouldn't be purty!

:)

how many are in the live well now? ha!

 

[FruDaddy]

This discussion is getting pretty extreme, for a group teeming with moderators.

*According to Oxford's dictionary*
moderator >noun 1 an arbitrator or mediator.

It is my understanding that Okie chooses the moderators, at least in part, based on their knowledge. Knowing that AJ mods bikes for a living, I would say that he is well informed when it comes to modern MX tech. It isn't like they are censoring anybody that disagrees with them, it's a discussion and they are particiating in it.

Their moderator position means that they patrol the entire board and ensure that the rules are followed, and hopefully that it doesn't get too personal. From what I have seen, they usually shut things down before it gets too bad. Also, there are enough of them, that if you have a problem with one, you can take your problem to another. Now, if your problem is with Okie (who chooses the mods), then that's just too bad.

Agitate away..

 

[Rich Rohrich]

What are F1 boats running?

They run two-strokes currently but are flirting with four-strokes.


From the F1 Powerboat Championship website

What of the future of F1 racing?. In terms of safety, there is always room for improvement but there does not appear to be any radical changes on the horizon. In 1999, rule changes allowed outboard engines up to 3 litre to participate as until then the limit had been 2 litre. However only OMC took up the challenge and although their 3 litre engine packs the power it has been unreliable and is no match for the less powerful Mercury 2.5 litre unit. Talks are currently underway with motor racing engine makers with a view to introduce 4 stroke inboard engines into F1 but many problems have to be overcome before we see a Porsche or BMW engine on the start line.


The original reference was to F1 auto racing where two-strokes are indeed illegal. If they weren't illegal I'm sure Mercury Marine would be throwing an ass whippin into a few euro teams with a V8 two-stroke. ;)

 

[ChopperDave]

My weed eater is a four stroke!

:)

 

[BadgerMan]

They run two-strokes currently but are flirting with four-strokes.

The original reference was to F1 auto racing where two-strokes are indeed illegal. If they weren't illegal I'm sure Mercury Marine would be throwing an ass whippin into a few euro teams with a V8 two-stroke. ;)

Those boats are absolutely incredible to watch, especially their corner speed!

Am I understanding their website correctly in that they have given only a .5L advantage to the four strokes? That's only 20% vs. the 100% advantage that the AMA has given the 250F in the 125 class!

:coocoo: