I disagree, he had the turn made, and if you look closely the rider behind KW is taking a similar line but didn't have the skills to make the turn quite as sharp.
LOOK HERE FOR A FEW FRAMES
*disclaimer* That is not my site.
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- Thread starter TheGrinch
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I disagree, he had the turn made, and if you look closely the rider behind KW is taking a similar line but didn't have the skills to make the turn quite as sharp.
LOOK HERE FOR A FEW FRAMES
*disclaimer* That is not my site.
marcusgunby
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- Jan 9, 2000
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Looks to me DV put a agressive but not dangerous pass on KW and KW got made and wiped him out.I would say KW was in the wrong.
KineticPoet
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http://archive.dmxsradio.com/roots/DV.mpg
Another angle-->http://archive.dmxsradio.com/roots/DV2.mpg
And a little extra something http://www.dmxsradio.com/visit_entry.asp?EntryID=130
DV had it coming. Boo on the 10 pt. penalty
Another angle-->http://archive.dmxsradio.com/roots/DV2.mpg
And a little extra something http://www.dmxsradio.com/visit_entry.asp?EntryID=130
DV had it coming. Boo on the 10 pt. penalty
Yeah, I Tivo'd the event and have watched this incident numerous now.
In the first corner, DV makes a "clean" block pass on KW- no contact.
Ont the 2nd corner, DV railed the corner outside line, KW just lurched his bike to the inside line and shut it off and basically parked it in front of DV's line. You also see KW put his right elbow into it.
Dont get me wrong, I also am a KW fan as well. But IMO, KW purposely parked him hit and run style.
KW definatly put his point out there that he isnt going to be pushed around.
Will be intersting to see these two tangle up again in the future.
... the docking of points, new to me that they would do that.
I still think Reed is going to smoke them all.
In the first corner, DV makes a "clean" block pass on KW- no contact.
Ont the 2nd corner, DV railed the corner outside line, KW just lurched his bike to the inside line and shut it off and basically parked it in front of DV's line. You also see KW put his right elbow into it.
Dont get me wrong, I also am a KW fan as well. But IMO, KW purposely parked him hit and run style.
KW definatly put his point out there that he isnt going to be pushed around.
Will be intersting to see these two tangle up again in the future.
... the docking of points, new to me that they would do that.
I still think Reed is going to smoke them all.
dirt bike dave
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- May 3, 2000
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No doubt KW was guilty of extremely aggressive riding. But I am sympathetic because he was trying to finish something DV started. DV should have anticipated retaliation and got out of the throttle when Windham was cutting across his path. Cobra would have lost momentum, but he would have immediately passed Windham back and had a chance to win the race. Of course in the heat of battle, it's pretty hard to always make the right choice...
I would expect the AMA to have a chat with Windham, and maybe fine him. But -10 points is just way too harsh.
I'm not trying to blame DV for Windham's riding, but I am very disappointed about the new penalty for rough passes. It could have a chilling effect on the competition and remove some of the excitement from the season.
from the looks of those frames KW just tried to come in hot and cut off DV's line before he got there and make a clean block pass, but DV wouldn't hear of it and tried to motor through KW anyways and got taken out, you can see DV look at KW mid way through the corner and he never made the correction to go underneath KW. atleast that is what i see, its a bit blurry.
From the seqence of photo's JKdub is in the wrong, DV took a more than usual agerssive line, but he didnt cut most of the corner off like KDub did thats for sure. Dv was rubbing, and isnt rubbing racing?? KDub just found his target and striked him out, and that isnt racing, if he was pushing DV around the corner and DV never went down maybe KDub would still have 10 more points than he does now, but they should have find KDub some cash inside of points. Also on elast thing, was that the fastest ling KDub could take around that corner all night?? The AMA could have been looking at it like that.....
- Dec 26, 1999
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So by taking an line that is not "typical" or considered normal Kdub showed he was being intential in hitting DV? OR was he taking a shorter line that would allow him to block his opponant and still make the turn? If they were not supposed to use that line then why was it there? Maybe they should put cones ut and have people direct the riders through specific line on the track. The name of the game is to use the available track to the best advantage. Kevin took a line he felt would work for him and DV didn't anticipate him doing it. DV could have shut down or grabbed a handful of this right lever but if you watch the video he never attempts to. He expected to be through the area before Kdub was there. It didn't work out that way though.
BTW I fully expect Skippy to take the #1 plate with Kdub a close second.
BTW I fully expect Skippy to take the #1 plate with Kdub a close second.
I didnt know heading into the season of the AMA's new rule for aggressive riding...
Wasn't Travis Preston having some trash passes put on him near the end of last season? I,m sure his team was probably one of the teams that gave the AMA input about that type of stuff...
The AMA will probably only look at the more extreme contacts, Their statement mentioned KW pretty much intentionally made contact and DV was flying towards the camera man. So maybe they will asses the points by the severeness of the contact, not rubbing. (I guess?)
Whats in the future, will a NFL Yellow flag be shot into the air when the foul occours????
Wasn't Travis Preston having some trash passes put on him near the end of last season? I,m sure his team was probably one of the teams that gave the AMA input about that type of stuff...
The AMA will probably only look at the more extreme contacts, Their statement mentioned KW pretty much intentionally made contact and DV was flying towards the camera man. So maybe they will asses the points by the severeness of the contact, not rubbing. (I guess?)
Whats in the future, will a NFL Yellow flag be shot into the air when the foul occours????
- Aug 2, 2000
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yeah, by like 10 points . . . :p
I don't think the 10 point rule is all that wrong. If you've read the article on transworldmx, the AMA WARNED the racers prior to the race that they wouldn't put up with overly aggressive riding anymore and the penalty for disobeying would be extreme....the riders mocked them for it. Where I work, it's called "Swift, Certain, and Severe" punishment. Good deterent. DV's pass was aggressive, but not OVERLY dangerous to himself or KW. KW had to nearly go BACKWARDS on the track in order to clean DV out the way he did. Now, you can "expect" a rider to chop the throttle all he wants, but if he doesn't, you should pay the price for riding overly aggressive and putting him, yourself, AND the other riders on the track in danger. Why should DV stop (although looking at the footage, DV doesn't appear to even see himself in danger until it's too late)? You KNOW Bailey has drilled it into DV's head that you NEVER look backwards, ALWAYS look forward. You shouldn't have to worry that someone BEHIND you is going to try and take you out. If you do, THEY need to be pulled off the track because THEY are a hazard to everyone else. It sucks that Windhams win doesn't count for more than it does, I would like to see him do well too, but he screwed up and has to pay the price.
Here is a cut and paste of the official AMA pro racing press release on the subject.
January 12, 2003
AMA Pro Racing statement regarding Kevin Windham penalty at Round two of the AMA Supercross Series
PICKERINGTON, Ohio (Jan. 12, 2004) -- In pre-season meetings and conversations with supercross team managers, AMA Pro Racing communicated that it would be taking a closer look at aggressive riding and begin imposing point deduction penalties instead of fines beginning with the 2004 season. This was partially in response to concerns stated by the teams over an increase in questionable riding tactics by some participants. It was generally agreed by all parties that fines were no longer an effective deterrent. This direction was communicated to riders and team personnel in rider meetings preceding Round 1 and Round 2.
In the opinion of race officials, Kevin Windham engaged in unsafe and unsportsmanlike riding by intentionally making contact with David Vuillemin on lap one of the main event. Said contact resulted in Vuillemin being pushed off the track nearly hitting a photographer standing nearby. In post race interviews, Windham all but acknowledged that he intentionally collided with Vuillemin.
As defined in the AMA Pro Racing Supercross Rulebook, this type of behavior is specifically prohibited and is punishable by (among other things) points deductions. Upon reviewing video footage of the situation, meeting with involved parties and discussing it with race officials, AMA Pro Racing Supercross/Motocross Series Manager, Steve Whitelock elected to impose a 10-point deduction to Windham’s results while allowing him to keep the win.
This decision is consistent with guidelines established in the AMA Pro Racing Supercross Rulebook. Additionally, is it consistent with the direction that had been discussed with team managers and personnel prior to the season beginning.
As stated then, it is AMA Pro Racing’s intention to minimize overly aggressive riding while maximizing safety to all riders and these actions are in line with those objectives.
About AMA Pro Racing
AMA Pro Racing is the leading sanctioning body for motorcycle sport in the United States. Its properties include the AMA Supercross Series, the AMA Chevrolet Motocross Championship, the AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship, the AMA Progressive Insurance Flat Track Championship and the AMA Red Bull Supermoto Championship. For more information about AMA Pro Racing, visit www.amaproracing.com.
January 12, 2003
AMA Pro Racing statement regarding Kevin Windham penalty at Round two of the AMA Supercross Series
PICKERINGTON, Ohio (Jan. 12, 2004) -- In pre-season meetings and conversations with supercross team managers, AMA Pro Racing communicated that it would be taking a closer look at aggressive riding and begin imposing point deduction penalties instead of fines beginning with the 2004 season. This was partially in response to concerns stated by the teams over an increase in questionable riding tactics by some participants. It was generally agreed by all parties that fines were no longer an effective deterrent. This direction was communicated to riders and team personnel in rider meetings preceding Round 1 and Round 2.
In the opinion of race officials, Kevin Windham engaged in unsafe and unsportsmanlike riding by intentionally making contact with David Vuillemin on lap one of the main event. Said contact resulted in Vuillemin being pushed off the track nearly hitting a photographer standing nearby. In post race interviews, Windham all but acknowledged that he intentionally collided with Vuillemin.
As defined in the AMA Pro Racing Supercross Rulebook, this type of behavior is specifically prohibited and is punishable by (among other things) points deductions. Upon reviewing video footage of the situation, meeting with involved parties and discussing it with race officials, AMA Pro Racing Supercross/Motocross Series Manager, Steve Whitelock elected to impose a 10-point deduction to Windham’s results while allowing him to keep the win.
This decision is consistent with guidelines established in the AMA Pro Racing Supercross Rulebook. Additionally, is it consistent with the direction that had been discussed with team managers and personnel prior to the season beginning.
As stated then, it is AMA Pro Racing’s intention to minimize overly aggressive riding while maximizing safety to all riders and these actions are in line with those objectives.
About AMA Pro Racing
AMA Pro Racing is the leading sanctioning body for motorcycle sport in the United States. Its properties include the AMA Supercross Series, the AMA Chevrolet Motocross Championship, the AMA Chevrolet Superbike Championship, the AMA Progressive Insurance Flat Track Championship and the AMA Red Bull Supermoto Championship. For more information about AMA Pro Racing, visit www.amaproracing.com.
FWIW, If you watch Reed's post race interview again, he says a few times that he wasn't on his game for the race and that losing to Kdub will motivate him for the next rounds. He does say that he didn't care for the track and that it was too easy and from the looks of it I'd agree. In fact, as we watched the first heat, I told my wife that this track looked pretty easy and had an outdoor terrain feel to it, so watch out for Kdub. I think the poor start in both his first heat and in the main did Reed in.
It would be hilarious if the Arenacross people tryed to enforce these rules. None of the racers would have any points. Those guys are always bumping and taking eachother down. I think a 10 point loss is kinda stiff. DV hit him first. Deduct 5 for each rider. And take the win money away from windam and give it to the last guy to do all the laps. I am sick of seeing guys get lapped. Maybe that would add some incentive to go faster for the whole race.
HiG4s
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- Mar 7, 2001
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Had Kdub said he was trying to block pass and misjudged the timing and the hard contact was unintentional. I would have believed him, the AMA would have believed him and there would have been a warning,, but just to show how class an act Kdub is, he admitted it was an intentional bump, even if the result and danger to DV was not intentional, and took the consequences. The AMA, once he admitted it, had the right to DQ him and take all the points away.
Screw the 10 points... KDub has ALWAYS been Mr. Nice Guy getting pushed around, it'll be 10 points well spent to serve notice IMHO. You can bet DV and everyone else for that matter, will think twice about stuffing him.
This points deduction thing is a can of worms the AMA will be sorry they opened.
Speaking of rough riding, I throughly enjoyed watching the leaders LAP Brown. :laugh:
This points deduction thing is a can of worms the AMA will be sorry they opened.
Speaking of rough riding, I throughly enjoyed watching the leaders LAP Brown. :laugh:
Judging by the reaction from many quarters about the point fine, it seems to have done what the AMA intended - act as a strong deterrent. Losing the championship by less than 10 points will hurt a whole lot more than a few thousand $$ in fines.
And, if the riders and teams were warned beforehand, there really is no excuse...
And, if the riders and teams were warned beforehand, there really is no excuse...
J_dem_Bones
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- Jun 23, 2001
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If they are going to fine Windham 10 for his block pass why are they not taking 10 points away from Vuillemin for his push pass in the previous corner? Also how about Tyler Evens and Grant Langston both of them should have 10 points deducted!!!!! Why just Windham??
Great clips, I have to agree with a couple here who said if DV wasn't there for a berm KW would have probably been over the berm himself. He might have pulled it off but he obviously wasn't planning on getting missed! Timing is everything. I don't know what to make of the points, bet it's going to be a non-issue in the end, but has to be playing on everybody's mind for the rest of the season now.
HERE is a link to some snapshots of the DV/KW incident someone posted on another site. KW CLEARLY goes backwards on the track in order to force contact with DV. It does appear DV sees him coming, but my guess is at the speeds they were traveling, he couldn't have reacted enough to prevent the collision. I'm still of the mind that they were warned before the race, KW may have just lost his temper, but now has to suffer the consequences. TOTALLY unacceptable. :|
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