In frame 3 of the KW pass, DV could have touched the rear brake and passed under KW. If he didnt see KW at this point, somebody get the boy some glasses. Frame 4, there is no oppurtunity to accelarate KW out of the hole, DV was blocked. In both 4 and 5 roost is leaving DVs bike, KW has the turn made before contact. If this were an arenacross DV would have been getting his bike out of the cheap seats. I watched this Sunday right after watching a local arenacross on Saturday night. These guys would all have negative scores with the 10 point rule.
Phoenix Spoiler
- Thread starter TheGrinch
- Start date
If Keivn hadn't lifted for the first cornor, he would have went down. Likewise, if DV had backed out, he wouldn't have ended up on the dirt. Its the same deal as the RC and TP incident last year. Don't penalize the guy for making a block. Its a shame the AMA is going to raise a stink over this particular incident.
If the 3rd frame is where DV first sees Windham coming, you know LESS than a second later they've made contact. DV is hard on the gas coming out of the turn, all he's probably thinking about at this point is the next turn, not wondering who's going to jump the track to take him out. I doubt anyone's reaction times are quick enough to divert their concentration, chop throttle, pull in the clutch, and hit the brakes in that time frame. It was a take out move. They were told before the race that type of behavior wouldn't be tolerated, he took a chance, it didn't work out. Bummer.
AX is a different animal altogether. I don't think the rule could be applied successfully..due to track size limitations and # of riders racing at once. But, the speeds aren't near as great either....so the possibility of inflicting injury is less.
DV's pass was definitely rubbing, but not an overly dangerous move. KW's was blatant. I agree, rubbing is racing, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. At this pace and without enforcement of the rules, by the time TP comes back to SX, he'll be no-footed can-caning people off their bikes on the triple!
AX is a different animal altogether. I don't think the rule could be applied successfully..due to track size limitations and # of riders racing at once. But, the speeds aren't near as great either....so the possibility of inflicting injury is less.
DV's pass was definitely rubbing, but not an overly dangerous move. KW's was blatant. I agree, rubbing is racing, but you've got to draw the line somewhere. At this pace and without enforcement of the rules, by the time TP comes back to SX, he'll be no-footed can-caning people off their bikes on the triple!
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
- 5,348
- 3
DV should have been looking for Windham even before he entered the corner. If he had been looking for Windham to retaliate, DV might have slowed down, stayed up and won the race.
Windham did not jump the track or go backwards - he took an unconventional line with a very late apex to make a brutal block pass. If he intentionally jumped the track or rode backward on the course to take out another rider, the AMA should have the stones to DQ and suspend him.
IMO, these little tussles are best settled by the riders. A rider that rides to take out others will slow himself down and make himself a target. His results will suffer, and he may lose fans and sponsors. So there are already mechanisms in place to keep the riders 'honest'. It may not always be fair in the short term, but it's worked for 30+ years of SX.
If it ain't broke, the AMA should not fix it. I can understand the concerns about rider safety and fair racing. Maybe its time to do something, but inconsistent penalties are not the solution.
Windham did not jump the track or go backwards - he took an unconventional line with a very late apex to make a brutal block pass. If he intentionally jumped the track or rode backward on the course to take out another rider, the AMA should have the stones to DQ and suspend him.
IMO, these little tussles are best settled by the riders. A rider that rides to take out others will slow himself down and make himself a target. His results will suffer, and he may lose fans and sponsors. So there are already mechanisms in place to keep the riders 'honest'. It may not always be fair in the short term, but it's worked for 30+ years of SX.
If it ain't broke, the AMA should not fix it. I can understand the concerns about rider safety and fair racing. Maybe its time to do something, but inconsistent penalties are not the solution.
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,504
- 19
hmmm . . . I was always taught to look down the track/trail, not at your fender.
How is it inconsistent when they were told before the race it would be enforced? Maybe in the past, yes. But there have been some changes within the AMA in the last few months, I suspect we'll see them on the track too. They're damned if they enforce the rules and damned if they don't!
And that's why he was penalized! I couldn't have said it better. It most definitely wasn't the quickest line through that turn, he was going against the flow of traffic the last few feet before impact, and you never saw him use it again for the rest of the race. It was a cool move to watch unfold, but chicken$#!^ for him to do. He's better than that and everyone knows it.
That's not what racers are taught. They're are taught to keep their eyes forward at all times. BUT, even if he had, he would have seen what we can see in the first frame....KW not a threat for a safe block pass, similar to the one he put on KW a couple turns prior. If he would've had to start dodging KW's bike going into every turn, both of them would've lost the race and we would've seen LaRocco on the top of the podium.
That's not what I see. I see DV's head pointed down the track, I suspect his eyes are on that shiney groove on the right hand side of the lane.
Out of curiousity, who is that LaRocco's rubbing elbows with on the Suzuki right behind them? Looks like KW had to jump the front of their bikes in order to get that intercept of DV!
J_dem_Bones
Member
- Jun 23, 2001
- 197
- 0
“ inconsistent penalties ”
How is it inconsistent when they were told before the race it would be enforced? Maybe in the past, yes. But there have been some changes within the AMA in the last few months, I suspect we'll see them on the track too. They're damned if they enforce the rules and damned if they don't!
So your telling us that DV didn't push up on KW in Corner 2???
I think he should be deducted points too if KW is!
Now since it's a new rule since the first race, Why isn't Grant Langston and Tyler Evens not fined also!! Tell that only KW should be fined???
How is it inconsistent when they were told before the race it would be enforced? Maybe in the past, yes. But there have been some changes within the AMA in the last few months, I suspect we'll see them on the track too. They're damned if they enforce the rules and damned if they don't!
So your telling us that DV didn't push up on KW in Corner 2???
I think he should be deducted points too if KW is!
Now since it's a new rule since the first race, Why isn't Grant Langston and Tyler Evens not fined also!! Tell that only KW should be fined???
To ask that question tells me you have not even seen the race. Seems to me you may want to actually see some video of the race before determining KW's guilt. As for his unconventional line not being the fastest through the corner again I disagree after all that unconventional line took him from second to first so it must have been faster than the line the guy in the lead took ;)
marcusgunby
LIFETIME SPONSOR
- Jan 9, 2000
- 6,450
- 2
Ive seen the vid now, and i feel KW was very much in the wrong, he nearly took out another rider trying to get to DV, and it was clear take out IMO-he had no intention of getting round the corner without contact.DVs move was not a take out-just rubbing, and KW took it wrong and got the penalty he deserves.
I did watch the race on Sunday. After thinking about it, I believe it was Hamblin (I think I remember Dumb & Dumberer mentioning his name). I also knew about the DV vs KW incident beforehand, so that's what I was watching for, not who was in 4th place coming off the gate. DV did make contact with KW, but he just pushed him up into the berm, CLEARLY a block pass and in-line with the whole "rubbin is racin" cliche' (which I'm not against---just the idea that the riders should have free reign to knock whomever they want down whenever they feel like it---seems like a safety issue to me). KW meant to SLAM into DV, not push him to the outside....or at least this is what his aggressiveness leads me to believe.
My guess is it was the whole Langston vs. Evans deal that lead the AMA to warn the riders PRIOR to the START of the Phoenix event. If I remember right, TV & GL were made an example of at the riders meeting prior to the Phoenix event by the AMA. Kinda stupid to punish them when that type of behavior was allowed prior to the AMA's warning.
My guess is it was the whole Langston vs. Evans deal that lead the AMA to warn the riders PRIOR to the START of the Phoenix event. If I remember right, TV & GL were made an example of at the riders meeting prior to the Phoenix event by the AMA. Kinda stupid to punish them when that type of behavior was allowed prior to the AMA's warning.
from the frames i've seen it looked like k-dub was trying to get in front of DV's line and cut him off so DV couldn't jump the next section and KW would have the lead, he just got their a little to late and by that point it was to late. what most of us "slower" people fail to realize is that these guys are hitting these corners 2nd or third WFO so there is was no time for KW to realize his mistake nor DV to correct under KW.
Well since we've needed to take what I thought was a "relatively good natured bantering" on the topic to a 5th grade personal insult level I'll end my part in the discussion with you at this time. I was simply trying to point out a different point of view on the topic and one that I've seen supported by a HUGE majority of people on the many mx boards I read.
truespode
Moderator / Wheelie King
- Jun 30, 1999
- 7,984
- 251
If KW would not have backed off the throttle the corner before DV would have taken KW out. Situation was reversed and DV did not let off so he got punted.
It was very, very similar moves by both of them and the outcome was a result of not shutting off.
Ivan
It was very, very similar moves by both of them and the outcome was a result of not shutting off.
Ivan
That's what I was trying to do too...accept a plausible alternative. I like KW and am glad he got his win, and hope it won't be his last...but I believe he crossed the line this time. I don't like DV, but think he got back a lot more than he dished out.
Sorry I missed the bantering, it's a lot easier when you've got someone jabbing you in the ribs with their elbow when they're jacking with you! Peace!
Sorry I missed the bantering, it's a lot easier when you've got someone jabbing you in the ribs with their elbow when they're jacking with you! Peace!
Its good that both weren't injured so you know there will be some good racing to come.
.
Seems to me the AMA always did this before with fines, didnt work over the years with some riders, so they made the big change over to points.. to drill the point home.
.
The issue is Kdubs team appealing the 10 points.
If they were told that it would be like that, then its just sour grapes. tough win but still great for KW.
.
Seems to me the AMA always did this before with fines, didnt work over the years with some riders, so they made the big change over to points.. to drill the point home.
.
The issue is Kdubs team appealing the 10 points.
If they were told that it would be like that, then its just sour grapes. tough win but still great for KW.
SpectraSVT
Member
- Apr 17, 2002
- 720
- 0
These two corners were nothing alike. DV was parrell with KW going in to the turn and simply got their first using the same line which is why KW had time to back out. In the next turn they take completely different lines and DV did not know KW was there. KW just landed in his line pointed off the track. KW saw DV in the first turn, DV did not see KW in the 2nd turn. from the frames it looks like he can see him but in real time it happened extremely fast.
So pretty soon the riders are going to have to become actors like the kickers are in football. If someone touches them the fall down in spectacular fashion, get a yellow flag, 15 Yards, and an automatic first down!
I can see it now, 15 point bonus plus you get to restart the race from the first corner with everyone else at the gate!
I can see it now, 15 point bonus plus you get to restart the race from the first corner with everyone else at the gate!
Jon K.
~SPONSOR~
- Mar 26, 2001
- 1,354
- 4
When all the griping and moaning is over, the penalties will make for better racing. I look forward to it. Should have done it sooner.
Yeah, rubbin' is racin', but when you take it too far, racing suffers. It starts to become Rollerball, or the WWF.
These guys can race without taking each other out, and hopefully will from this point forward.
Yeah, rubbin' is racin', but when you take it too far, racing suffers. It starts to become Rollerball, or the WWF.
These guys can race without taking each other out, and hopefully will from this point forward.
- Nov 22, 2000
- 4,392
- 0
Please. I've seen several frame-by-frame sequences of the first and second turns. Vuillemin pulled the EXACT same move on Windham. The only difference is that Windham let off long wnough for DV to get by. DV almost went down when he hit K-dub the first time. If Kevin's bike hadn't been there for DV to launch off, DV would have low-sided.
Kudos to K-dub for jamming it right back in DV's face.
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