Riding style in Woods?

[endoquest]

Ditto. Crushed my foot while trying to upshift in a creek bed. Spent two days in the hospital and almost lost a toe. From that day on I've always set my shifter and brake up, when I ride other peoples' bikes with low pedals I usually hand it back to them right away.
Another reason for standing up: It lowers your center of gravity to the pegs and allows you to weight them individually.
Another reason for standing up: It looks good
Another reason for standing up: About 18" more suspension travel, depending on the length of your legs.
Another reason for standing up: Monkey Butt

 

[sixstring4137785]

Lot's of good advice here.
I found slowing the rebound damping down a bit really helped in alot of woods situations. I can sustain good speed without launching off of bumps and other woods terrain. It allowed me to fly thru the whoops smoothly. Works nice on a track for jumps, but that quick rebound was killing me in the woods.

 

[Scott in KC]

Awesome thread, one of the best I've read in a while!! This is such a diverse subject and everyones terrain is so different coast to coast makes for good reading.

I don't race, but I might someday, I do like to go fast in the woods (or atleast try.):D I was finally able to get a handle on standing this year, got some tall bars, moved the levers & shifter. It felt so freaky at first, felt like I was going over the bars if I missed a shift or hanging on for dear life when on the gas. But, I kept at it. Now it feels completely unnatural to sit while trail riding. Monkey butt is at a minimum these days and my speed has improved greatly. I can see further down the trail and react to with body english rather than letting the suspension and my back take the abuse.

A lot of our trails here in KS & MO are quad-ridden, with deep double grooves in the tight corners. I ride a WR426 and have been trying to figure a halfway quick route through these damn corners without sitting, and it's hard! Brake sliding the 4 stroke is hit & miss (or should I say Hit or STALL!)

There is so much talk about how to jump, how to do wheelies & stoppies, getting more power, etc. Heck, I am more concerned about hopping that log, crossing that steam and not falling on my a$$ on the way up that slimy, rocky bank on the other side! I mean jumping and messing around with tricks is fun, but when you can smoothly flash a gnarly section of trail and look back to see others flailing on the stuff you made quick work of...now that's saticfaction. :cool:

 

[mgorman]

Before you go fast you must 1st learn how to go slow.

Ben, next time we ride, remind me to show you the peg weighting while standing. going into the turn, weight the inside peg. As soon as you get into the turn switch feet and weight the outside through the turn. Ride an open field and Alternate your feet back and forth, you see what I mean. Your feet will do more for your tuning than your hands when standing.

Also, lets fiddle with your dampening. Your bike was not that stiff but it was over dampened for your weight and speed. An over dampened bike will bounce and deflect and slide. Remember the baby thump? I rode every bike who's owner was on baby thump. They all loved the suspension and I felt their's were over kills. pattern???

Baby thump for sale, see sale forum

 

[BenjaminPQ]

Cool Mike I appreciate it!

We can try some stuff on Saturday. :)

 

[BadgerMan]

I think it all has already been said but here's what I have learned from thirty years of riding and racing in Michigan's sand whoops:

1. Stand up as much as you can. Running and/or cycling helps make this possible.

2. Ride an MX bike or an enduro closely based on an MX model (EXC, RMX, WR, etc).

3. Ride a smaller bike. Lots of power requires lots of upper body strength. A smaller less powerful bike will let you go faster for longer periods.

4. Look as far ahead as you can on the trail. If you are looking at your front fender you will ride much slower.

5. Ride on the balls of your feet to avoid smashed toes.

6. Carry momentum and ride smoothly. Gassing and breaking saps your energy especially if your riding a faster bike like a 250 MX'er. Upper body strength helps make this possible.

7. Go fast when you can. Take advantage of straights.

8. Go slow when you have to. Recovering from mistakes saps your energy and ruins your concentration.

9. Go around the bumps when you can to save energy.

10. Straighten out the trail as much as you can.

11. Drink LOTS of water all the time. Not just on days you are riding.

12. Jump the whoops when you can. Otherwise, stay on the gas and on top of the whoops. The right bike and proper set up make this much easier. Try adding rebound in the rear if you are having trouble.

Hope this helps.

 

[ktmboy]

Another reason you should stand...

KTM seats!:debil:

 

[mgorman]

They make replacements seats for KTM's and they are softer than stock. You can find them at Lowes and other hardware stores in the plumbing department. They are oak and have a big 10" hole in the middle for hemroid relief.

 

[BenjaminPQ]

Originally posted by BadgerMan

2. Ride an MX bike or an enduro closely based on an MX model (EXC, RMX, WR, etc).

Funny that you mention that because a lot of the problems I was having were cured when riding a buddies XR250. I will own one by spring.

 

[BenjaminPQ]

Originally posted by mgorman
They make replacements seats for KTM's and they are softer than stock. You can find them at Lowes and other hardware stores in the plumbing department. They are oak and have a big 10" hole in the middle for hemroid relief.

Mike, what are you implying? That KTM's are nothing more then a seat to relieve yourself on? I might agree with that!:p

 

[mgorman]

Not at all, I like KTM's. It is just that Oak is a little softer than the foam that comes stock on the big orange. Plus they give you more support....

 

[BenjaminPQ]

:eek: Very True!

 

[BadgerMan]

Originally posted by BenjaminPQ


Funny that you mention that because a lot of the problems I was having were cured when riding a buddies XR250. I will own one by spring.

XR250's are great bikes, I own an old one myself. I've ridden a newer one too and was quite impressed. On smooth tight trails they are as fast as anything. I remember an article in one of the dirt rags several years ago where they had Scott Summers run laps on each of the XR's and he was fastest on the 250 (a lighter, less powerful bike)! However, if there are sand whoops involved, mine stays at home since my YZ250F is a waaaaaay faster (and safer) alternative.

I spent several years racing an XR250 and KDX200. I used to watch guys on MX bikes and KTM's railing sandy turns (standing up!) and hammering whoops. I always thought they were just better riders than me until I broke down and bought a '93 250EXC. You don't realize how fork flex affects a bike's handling until you ride a bike with no fork flex! The KTM wore me down though since it was just too quick. The YZF I am riding now is a great middle of the road bike. Not too powerful and great handling when ridden in its element. I must add however that it would not be a good choice for really slow/tight trails due to the stiffer suspension and tall first gear.

BTW, I spent some time on a friend's '99 300EXC this summer and found it to be a very busy bike for fast whooped up terrain. He gears his up (1 tooth bigger CS) to soften the hit which I think really helps. If I owned the bike I would increase the rear sag, lower the forks in the clamps as much as possible and buy a steering damper all in an atempt to make it more stable. Other wise, it was a great bike.

 

[kmccune]

The smooth momentum style will reward you with a longer riding day, due to less exertion and fewer broken bones due to trees and rocks... well unless you maintain too much momentum! But I think that it is not nearly as much fun as the full moto woods approach! :cool:

Kevin

 

[Fred T]

The Badger Man rips...

I've ridden with the badgerman 3 times and that boy flat out rips. I never see him for more than a few minutes, so if you want some good advice he's learned something about getting between the trees PDQ! I wish I knew I'd end up as serious about riding as I am now and I'd have gotten a different bike, but after a 17 year hiatus I was thinking I'd just be happy to ride again . The one thing Badgerman didnn't mention is physical conditioning, and he's in great shape which helps makes him fast. I need to lose some lard so I can keep him in signt a little longer. Maybe I'll be slimmer for 2002???

 

[BadgerMan]

Oh, I forgot. In addtion to my 12 points above:

13. To stay in shape, eat Fred's excellent cooking only on special occasions and then partake in moderation. Otherwise, practice a boring, bland diet of twigs, nuts, and whole grains.

Hey Fred, how 'bout that game yesterday? Kinda sucked didn't it? Ya had to love the MSU/PSU game though! Joe's my hero!

BTW, check out the steering damper on Fred's kawie (see his picture page). Great way to go if you're riding sand whoops on a busy bike.

 

[Fred T]

Ya.

It's been a funky season for U of M. Jo Po has one more for a bowl game, I hope he get's it. If you eat much of my cooking you will look like me.:eek:

Oh ya, woods riding...
well a wise man once said to me as I kept returning with a bent up bike in my "early Enduro career" to "slow down and go faster" and that's the best advice I can give...smooth is always the fastest.

I learned how to go fast on a 125 because once I got that thing rolling it was too much work to get it up to speed so rolling along carrying as much speed as possible with al little brakes has been my philosophy. It was a Kaw KD 125 and in those days (1975-1979)MX bikes weren't an option for enduro racing. We had to make our own bikes and trick them out.

 

[BadgerMan]

KD 125!

You had a KD 125!? I rode a 1976 KD 175 as a teenager! I loved that bike. My dad paid $600.00 for it........brand new! Silver tank and black fenders. Great woods motor (rotary valve) and terrible suspension. I have always believed that starting with a smaller less powerful bike helps to develop woods riding skills. That's why my kids started on XR's and not CR's.

 

[fatherandson]

I agree Badgerman. My first bike (at age 10) was a Honda XL 125. You have got to learn somewhere and the small four strokes are best.
It has been said before, but the best way to get faster in the woods is to ride smooth. Mistakes (dead engines or falls) use up a lot of energy and take up valuable time.
My $.02 worth.

Looking forward to chasing Badgerman again in 2002.:p

 

[BenjaminPQ]

Originally posted by BadgerMan


XR250's are great bikes, I own an old one myself. I've ridden a newer one too and was quite impressed. On smooth tight trails they are as fast as anything. I remember an article in one of the dirt rags several years ago where they had Scott Summers run laps on each of the XR's and he was fastest on the 250 (a lighter, less powerful bike)! However, if there are sand whoops involved, mine stays at home since my YZ250F is a waaaaaay faster (and safer) alternative.

I spent several years racing an XR250 and KDX200. I used to watch guys on MX bikes and KTM's railing sandy turns (standing up!) and hammering whoops. I always thought they were just better riders than me until I broke down and bought a '93 250EXC. You don't realize how fork flex affects a bike's handling until you ride a bike with no fork flex! The KTM wore me down though since it was just too quick. The YZF I am riding now is a great middle of the road bike. Not too powerful and great handling when ridden in its element. I must add however that it would not be a good choice for really slow/tight trails due to the stiffer suspension and tall first gear.

BTW, I spent some time on a friend's '99 300EXC this summer and found it to be a very busy bike for fast whooped up terrain. He gears his up (1 tooth bigger CS) to soften the hit which I think really helps. If I owned the bike I would increase the rear sag, lower the forks in the clamps as much as possible and buy a steering damper all in an atempt to make it more stable. Other wise, it was a great bike.

Well, since we have no sand here and most of the trails are very tight, I shouldn't have a problem. Also, when the XR was redesigned in 96 they addressed the frame/fork flexing.

 

[mgorman]

Almost all frame flex is gone campared to the old bike. However a lot of people complain about the new fork. Flex is not a problem but they could aleast put a rebound dampner on them.

 

[Fred T]

Re: KD 125!

Originally posted by BadgerMan
You had a KD 125!? I rode a 1976 KD 175 as a teenager! I loved that bike. My dad paid $600.00 for it........brand new! Silver tank and black fenders. Great woods motor (rotary valve) and terrible suspension. I have always believed that starting with a smaller less powerful bike helps to develop woods riding skills. That's why my kids started on XR's and not CR's.

Yep! A KD 125..I rode it as a B rider and moved up to 125 A class on it and in 1977 placed 3rd in the Dist 14 Enduro Series in the 125A class on a dang KD 125. I did upgrade the shock and put some trick (at that time) long travel (6 inches :eek: ) kit in the front forks. Put a bigger plastic tank on it and other plastic stuff and went racin' I know I have a picture of it somewhere. I graduated to a Yam IT 175 in 1978, rode them until 1980 and got a KDX 175. Retired in 1981 from racing and quit riding in 1983. I got married in 1980 and my son was born in 1983.

 

[BadgerMan]

Originally posted by BenjaminPQ


Well, since we have no sand here and most of the trails are very tight, I shouldn't have a problem. Also, when the XR was redesigned in 96 they addressed the frame/fork flexing.

Good choice! If it was not for the sand whoops here in Michigan, I would probably own a new XR250. I rode a ’97 XR 250 some time ago both before and after the addition of an SRC fork brace. It made a big difference in the way the bike steered and held a line. There was no difference in the power between my old ’86 and the new one but man did that new one handle better. I believe the bike still comes with a 41mm conventional cartridge fork so anything you can do the shore up the front end will help.

 

[mgorman]

I stand up alot when I ride. I ususaly only sit when I need the wheels to stick in a corner that I will be powering out of. Since my hands are holding on a little more than a person sitting the first thing I always notice is how the forks feel. I supose if you had two identicaly dampened forks of different size I might be able to notice the flex.

I have been jumping back and forth between 3 different bikes lately all in the same day. A '99 KTM300, 2000 DRZ400 and my '99 XR250. Dampening is the thing I notice most and to be truthfull the only flex I have ever notice was on my 95 XR250 and it was the frame, not the forks that I noticed. When you can look down in the whoops and see your whole fork, tree and bar assembly flexing seperately from the frame, something is wrong. Especialy when the paint is totaly missing from all welds in the main triangle and the downtube is full of spider cracks.

Back to the origial post, Every bike needs a slightly different style to ride. Ride a CR500 the same way you ride a CR125 and I will send you flowers for the grave or bleach for your britches.

A person needs to feel totaly at home on the bike that he or she is riding. A bike that deflects and bounces all over the trail is not going to inspire confidence in anyone. I took the advice of the famous ISDE medalist Drew Smith and concentrated on my suspension before I did anything at all to the motor. It was money well spent. I was able to go a sustantial amount faster. NO rider has ever gotten off my W.E.R. suspended XR and had one complaint about the suspension or its handling. (sorry there is no fork brace on it)

Another thing that novice riders make is waiting too long to replace or cut thier tires. A tire with rounded edges won't hook up on hard splippery surfaces. Something as simple as turning a tire around or borowing the turkey carver will give an old tire a dozen more rides.

After riding your bike, these are my personal observations

The first thing you need to do Ben is get them forks back to where KTM designed them to be. This way we can get to your dampening screws. Set the compresion at full soft and then go in a few clicks to start. I could not set or change any of your settings because the legs were too high.

2nd thing is to get the sag set on the rear to your weight and the compression the same as the front. If you have to crank the spring down very far, I'd try the heavier spring. An over preloaded spring will cause the 1st few inches of travel to be harsh and the rest normal or soft.

3rd, Sit down with a good serrated knife and cut a new square edge into the leading edge of the rear tires knobs. That was the scariest part of ring the beast. It wouldn't hook up.

4th Put the spark arrester silencer on the bike . It will take the bite out of the bark and smooth out the power. I did that to my 300 and loved it. It also made it alot quieter.
Once you have that done you can ride and practice all you want. Take along a screw driver like I did Saturday. Don't be afraid to turn those adjusters and feel the differences they make. I set the power valve "in" slightly from Dozers. You should play with that alot on a short loop that you can repeat continuously. Same with the suspension.

After doing this to Slammers DRZ it was a blast to ride. Because we had to take the settings to the extremes, we both agreed that the Z needs a revalve.

And remember, STAND UP!!!!

If you want any help with these things, just ask. So far, I can't ride this weekend.

Set-Up for comfort first, power just gets you into trouble faster.

BTW, Slammer laughed his butt off about the Submarine jokes we sent him...

 

[BadgerMan]

Originally posted by mgorman
I stand up alot when I ride. I ususaly only sit when I need the wheels to stick in a corner that I will be powering out of. Since my hands are holding on a little more than a person sitting the first thing I always notice is how the forks feel. I supose if you had two identicaly dampened forks of different size I might be able to notice the flex.

I have been jumping back and forth between 3 different bikes lately all in the same day. A '99 KTM300, 2000 DRZ400 and my '99 XR250. Dampening is the thing I notice most and to be truthfull the only flex I have ever notice was on my 95 XR250 and it was the frame, not the forks that I noticed. When you can look down in the whoops and see your whole fork, tree and bar assembly flexing seperately from the frame, something is wrong. Especialy when the paint is totaly missing from all welds in the main triangle and the downtube is full of spider cracks.

Back to the origial post, Every bike needs a slightly different style to ride. Ride a CR500 the same way you ride a CR125 and I will send you flowers for the grave or bleach for your britches.

A person needs to feel totaly at home on the bike that he or she is riding. A bike that deflects and bounces all over the trail is not going to inspire confidence in anyone. I took the advice of the famous ISDE medalist Drew Smith and concentrated on my suspension before I did anything at all to the motor. It was money well spent. I was able to go a sustantial amount faster. NO rider has ever gotten off my W.E.R. suspended XR and had one complaint about the suspension or its handling. (sorry there is no fork brace on it)


I guess it all depends on how and where you ride. I always used to get my butt kicked when racing south of the Michigan border so it must require a different riding style and/or bike set up.