Whatdoya think ( Pastrana gets hand slaped )

If they ban the back flip, they have to ban any celebration that includes a trick that is not a normal move used while during the race including Nac Nacs, Can Cans, and anything where both hands are taken off the bars. If they don't the AMA could find themselves in a discrimiatory lawsuit.

And I see no difference from MCs Nac Nacs,, that was as radical a trick for its day as the backflip is now.

HiG4s said:

If they ban the back flip, they have to ban any celebration that includes a trick that is not a normal move used while during the race including Nac Nacs, Can Cans, and anything where both hands are taken off the bars. If they don't the AMA could find themselves in a discrimiatory lawsuit.

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Uh, yeah, that suit would go far.

The AMA can ban, or not ban, whatever they choose and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. And guess what, they banned it and the case on this one is closed. Period. End of story.

It still amazes me that some of you can't grasp the difference in complexity and risk between a Nac Nac and a back flip. Probably half the riders on this site, or more, can do a Nac Nac; somehow I doubt the same can be said for a back flip.

Ok, so he does a no hander nac nac next time :ride:

i would like to see more superman seat grabs , those are neat. maybe Bubba should learn some tricks, he's following along the same sort of lines as TP, except TP knows his place in life and Bubba keeps hanging on to become a serious racer . :p

ellandoh said:

i would like to see more superman seat grabs , those are neat. maybe Bubba should learn some tricks, he's following along the same sort of lines as TP, except TP knows his place in life and Bubba keeps hanging on to become a serious racer . :p

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OUCH!! Thats rough :laugh: :laugh: :)

try and try to like the kid but it just aint happening. excuses are wearing thin. especially the "its actually his rookie season on the big bikes, he missed most of last year" and i feel the excuses already coming for the nats , ill bet we see it going something like this "give him a break he hasnt ridden the 450 outdoors" :blah:

mtk said:

Uh, yeah, that suit would go far.

The AMA can ban, or not ban, whatever they choose and there isn't a thing anyone can do about it. And guess what, they banned it and the case on this one is closed. Period. End of story.

It still amazes me that some of you can't grasp the difference in complexity and risk between a Nac Nac and a back flip. Probably half the riders on this site, or more, can do a Nac Nac; somehow I doubt the same can be said for a back flip.

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First off, seeing there is nothing in the rules about these things, it just might go somewhere.
and Second, even if it didn't go anywhere, the point is AMA is just being stupid as usual just asking for someone to sue, which would waste more of our dues on stupid crap they shouldn't be spending money on.

Do you want to bet that there is nothing in the rules?

I GUARANTEE that the AMA rulebook has a general rule about unsafe behavior and also has a rule that says, essentially, that the Race Director is god and what he says goes.

And no, it wouldn't go anywhere and it's asinine to think it would.

mtk said:

Do you want to bet that there is nothing in the rules?

I GUARANTEE that the AMA rulebook has a general rule about unsafe behavior and also has a rule that says, essentially, that the Race Director is god and what he says goes.

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Please enlighten us as to the location of this rule. I, for one, would like to read it.

From the Introduction on page 2 of the AMA Pro Supercross rulebook:

"Please note that while every effort has been made to write these rules in aclear and unambiguous fashion, it is impossible to anticipate every circumstance. In all cases, it will be the race manager's job to make decisions regarding rules enforcement."

Page 26

"L. On Track Regulations
1. No rider may, at any time, ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public."

Page 35

"CHAPTER 4 OFFENSES, PENALTIES, PROTESTS AND APPEALS
A. General Information
1. Through the establishment and enforcement of various rules and procedures, AMA Pro Racing strives to regulate the sport of professional motorcycle racing in the fairest possible manner. By participating in an AMA Pro Racing meet, each participant agrees to abide by AMA Pro Racing's rules and procedures. In addition, AMA Pro Racing-licensed riders are held responsible for the actions of their crewmembers. As part of entering an AMA Pro Racing meet, a rider assures AMA Pro Racing that his/her crewmembers are AMA members in good standing. All parties involved in AMA Pro Racing meets are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner, respecting at all times the rights of others. Participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities is a privilege afforded to license and event credential holders, and all such participants understand that violation of AMA Pro Racing rules and procedures can lead to forfeiture of their competition licenses or event credential, fines, points deductions, lap deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position), disqualification and other disciplinary actions as outlined herein."

Then, on page 36

"B. General Offenses and Penalties
1. This section outlines actions which are deemed to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing and which may result in a range of disciplinary actions. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, the Series Manager may disqualify any participant or motorcycle from the balance of a race meet for violation of these rules, insubordination or other actions deemed in the sole discretion of the Series Manager to be detrimental to the race meet and the sport. Such disqualification includes the loss of any rights with regard to the event in question and may result in expulsion from the meet site. In addition, the Series Manager is empowered to levy fines and to recommend to AMA Pro Racing that a party or parties be suspended from participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, AMA Pro Racing is empowered to suspend from competition any rider, crewmember or motorcycle for a period of one meet up to an indefinite suspension for violation of these rules, insubordination, or other actions deemed, in the sole discretion of AMA Pro Racing, to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing. AMA Pro Racing is also empowered to, in addition to or in lieu of a suspension from competition, suspend a rider's eligibility to earn points for one or more events including, but not limited to, the event in which the rules violation took place. In addition, AMA Pro Racing is empowered to levy fines, points deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position) and lap deductions. The beginning and ending dates of any such suspension will be as determined by AMA Pro Racing."

and in case that wasn't enough, they go on:

"2. Any supplemental rules, regulations, instructions or procedures established by AMA Pro Racing for the purpose of implementing, interpreting or enforcing these rules will be deemed to be part of the rules."

Then, in the section on General Offenses and Penalties,

"q. Riding at any time in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of other riders, officials or the public."

plus the catch-all

"w. Any other act or actions deemed by a Series Manager or AMA Pro Racing to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing and the AMA."

http://www.amaproracing.com/prorace/pdf/mx 06 Rulebook.pdf

All that means, in no uncertain terms, that a lawsuit would get laughed out of court.

mtk said:

All that means, in no uncertain terms, that a lawsuit would get laughed out of court.

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That just means in no uncertian terms that is your opinion..

FMX stunts, including backflips can be proven to be good for the sport.. Seeing as AMA has actually hired FMX guys to perform these stunts inbetween races at several events over the last few years.. And seeing TP is also one of these pro FMX guys, and seeing the race was over and there was no one near him so he did not endanger anyone else he did not violate any rule you stated.

HiG4s said:

FMX stunts, including backflips can be proven to be good for the sport.. Seeing as AMA has actually hired FMX guys to perform these stunts inbetween races at several events over the last few years...

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Proven, eh? Just like back flips are proven to be the new nac-nac?

Promoters will do all kings of freak shows between races. For example, they used to hire The Wheelie King. He would wheelie around the track, aided by an electric motor that spun his front wheel (the spinning front made the wheelie more stable). By your logic the AMA must allow motorized front wheels because it is proven to be good for the sport. :coocoo:

Thanks mtk for the rule book posts. Looks like the AMA is acting well within the rule book to me.

mtk said:

From the Introduction on page 2 of the AMA Pro Supercross rulebook:

Page 26

"L. On Track Regulations
1. No rider may, at any time, ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public."

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I believe that no one was near Travis when he made his attempt of the back-flip. Moreover, this is not dangerous riding for Travis as he has shown that he can complete this maneuver hundreds of times.

Hey AMA, lighten up.

JPIVEY said:

I want to see the veiw from the helmet cam

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Dave Despain showed it on Wind Tunnel last night, along with several other camera angles. TP showed very good form and nearly made it around far enough!

As to the AMA and all of this discussion of the rules relating to this, I say "GIVE ME A BREAK!"
This is a group of incompetent 'Keystone Cops' who wouldn't know how to run how to run their own neighborhood association. Rules, what rules? They do as they please, when they please. I'm very sorry for you if you haven't been able to figure out by now that the AMA is worse than an embarrassment to us MC riders; they are a joke.

Read Ron Barrick's press conference statements on the Daytona 200 pace car debacle if you have any doubt. http://superbikeplanet.com/2006/Mar/060311lst5.htm

And remember, common sense is the least common of the senses!

charging the whoops is more dangours to travis! That was some battle he had going with Tedesco... Travis is still fast. as for the flip.. Even if he never can do it again... I loved seeing his bike upside down, with the tough blocks and the baners... I thought it was prety cool...

mtk said:

All that means, in no uncertain terms, that a lawsuit would get laughed out of court.

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Don't overestimate the intelligence of some trial court judges, or their attentiveness to what the law actually says. ;)

Ultimately, this issue comes down to a private organization - the AMA. That organization has the natural right to set whatever rules it chooses. If Travis (or anyone else) doesn't want to be involved, they don't have to because no one is forcing them to be a member or to partake in the races. If those rules become too ridiculous or too arbitrary, then people will start leaving the organization in droves. (I saw a couple people on here say they wouldn't race AMA or join because of the ridiculous rules.)

As an example:

(Much of the following is from an article written by Sheldon Richman of the Future of Freedom Foundation - with my editing . . .)

A recent example of a screwy law is in Oklahoma. The statute requires employers to let workers keep firearms in their cars in the company parking lot.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) is calling for a boycott of Conoco-Phillips (CP) because CP is trying to overturn the law in federal court.

Two caveats:

First, the NRA has the right to boycott anyone they want to.

Second, barring employees from keeping guns in their cars is silly because only law-abiding citizens will obey the law and anyone intent on using a firearm for evil purpose will use it regardless of the company’s law.

That said, the Oklahoma law is still a bad law. The owner of property has a natural right to set the rules for its use. That’s what ownership means. The owner’s wishes should be respected. This is no different from being asked not to bring a gun into a person’s home. If you don’t like the owner’s rule, you are free to go elsewhere. The employee can park elsewhere or get a different job.

The NRA states that it will support laws similar to the Oklahoma law in all states. The danger of such a move is that an attack on one right is an attack on all rights. The rights of gun owners will not be secure if the rights of other kinds of owners are not secure. Ownership, per se, needs a consistent defense.

The constitution governs relations between the government and individuals, not relations between individuals. The companies did not forbid the employees from keeping and bearing arms - it merely said they could not bring those arms onto their property. Even though that rule is silly, the company is well within its rights to do so. There is no natural, civil or constitutional right for anyone to use property against the property owner’s wishes.

Unfortunately, many enthusiasts of various activities are so set on justifying their position that they make undertake remarkable mental contortions. (End Richman article.)

Thus, the AMA has an "ownership" right in its organization and rules, and can do whatever it wants concerning the design of the tracks, the rules on tricks and celebrations, the rules on fuel, etc. . . If they want to ban triples, backflips and lead in fuel, they can. This does not mean those rules are intelligent or productive. Many of them are ridiculous. However, they are not so ridiculous that Travis, RC, Bubba, and most of us are willing to terminate our relationship with the AMA and lose the benefits it provides - whether those benefits be large sums of income to the pros or just being able to race on the local track for us lesser mortals.

In short, if you don’t like the rule(s), then don’t join the AMA and quit watching the races - or start a grassroots campaign to modify the rules. Email the head of the AMA (I did over the fuel rule) or whatever. But there should be no basis in law for a suit over whether the AMA is discriminating over a backflip. Unfortunately, the law (and the application thereof) isn’t perfect - far from it - and sometimes the rulings are screwy . . . and there seems to be more and more of them in recent times as our "nanny" government watches over us.

Dumbass AMA. Now they are going to need to publish what tricks are acceptable during racing so the riders will know if they are risking having there license revoked when they celebrate. Didn't David Vuillemin use to pull heelclickers all the time back when he was relatively new on the circuit?

Nac Nac OK
Can Can and all variations OK
Heelclicker OK
No hander OK
Whip OK
Backflip NOT OK

I understand where the AMA is coming from. I understand that a backflip is NOT a simple feet-off-the-pegs trick. I understand that no one wants to see anyone get hurt, especially when it's his own doing by performing unnecessary tricks. I understand that Travis probably doesn't give a rat's a$$ and knows how to be a showman.

I think the AMA has every right to keep riders from doing certain types of celebratory tricks. I'm glad that Travis did it, and so were most of the fans that saw him.

HOWEVER, I think that TP is sorta pulling a Mike Tyson move here. He knows he can't give his fans a win, so he'll resort to being a spectacle instead of settling for a top ten finish.

I like Travis a lot and respect that he does what he wants. He's never going to win an SX/MX championship in the future and he doesn't care. He's doing what he wants, and he'll never be forgotten... regardless of his racing stats. He does everything for enjoyment and for the fans, and the fans love him for it.

Ryan

Ryone said:

I understand where the AMA is coming from. I understand that a backflip is NOT a simple feet-off-the-pegs trick. I understand that no one wants to see anyone get hurt, especially when it's his own doing by performing unnecessary tricks. I understand that Travis probably doesn't give a rat's a$$ and knows how to be a showman.

I think the AMA has every right to keep riders from doing certain types of celebratory tricks. I'm glad that Travis did it, and so were most of the fans that saw him.

HOWEVER, I think that TP is sorta pulling a Mike Tyson move here. He knows he can't give his fans a win, so he'll resort to being a spectacle instead of settling for a top ten finish.

I like Travis a lot and respect that he does what he wants. He's never going to win an SX/MX championship in the future and he doesn't care. He's doing what he wants, and he'll never be forgotten... regardless of his racing stats. He does everything for enjoyment and for the fans, and the fans love him for it.

Ryan

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:nod:

Total agreement. :cool:

Thank you.

"Please note that while every effort has been made to write these rules in aclear and unambiguous fashion, it is impossible to anticipate every circumstance. In all cases, it will be the race manager's job to make decisions regarding rules enforcement."

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This looks like the we do what we want when we want clause

"L. On Track Regulations
1. No rider may, at any time, ride in such a manner as to endanger life or limb of other riders, officials or the public."

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Only Travis was in danger, so this is irrelevant

"CHAPTER 4 OFFENSES, PENALTIES, PROTESTS AND APPEALS
A. General Information
1. Through the establishment and enforcement of various rules and procedures, AMA Pro Racing strives to regulate the sport of professional motorcycle racing in the fairest possible manner. By participating in an AMA Pro Racing meet, each participant agrees to abide by AMA Pro Racing's rules and procedures. In addition, AMA Pro Racing-licensed riders are held responsible for the actions of their crewmembers. As part of entering an AMA Pro Racing meet, a rider assures AMA Pro Racing that his/her crewmembers are AMA members in good standing. All parties involved in AMA Pro Racing meets are expected to conduct themselves in a professional manner, respecting at all times the rights of others. Participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities is a privilege afforded to license and event credential holders, and all such participants understand that violation of AMA Pro Racing rules and procedures can lead to forfeiture of their competition licenses or event credential, fines, points deductions, lap deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position), disqualification and other disciplinary actions as outlined herein."[/qoute]First sentence made me laugh, "fairest possible manner":bang: . Yeah, until the golden boy gets caught. None of this applies here. It just says that participants can be penalized.

"B. General Offenses and Penalties
1. This section outlines actions which are deemed to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing and which may result in a range of disciplinary actions. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, the Series Manager may disqualify any participant or motorcycle from the balance of a race meet for violation of these rules, insubordination or other actions deemed in the sole discretion of the Series Manager to be detrimental to the race meet and the sport. Such disqualification includes the loss of any rights with regard to the event in question and may result in expulsion from the meet site. In addition, the Series Manager is empowered to levy fines and to recommend to AMA Pro Racing that a party or parties be suspended from participation in AMA Pro Racing-sanctioned activities. Unless otherwise specifically provided for in these rules, AMA Pro Racing is empowered to suspend from competition any rider, crewmember or motorcycle for a period of one meet up to an indefinite suspension for violation of these rules, insubordination, or other actions deemed, in the sole discretion of AMA Pro Racing, to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing. AMA Pro Racing is also empowered to, in addition to or in lieu of a suspension from competition, suspend a rider's eligibility to earn points for one or more events including, but not limited to, the event in which the rules violation took place. In addition, AMA Pro Racing is empowered to levy fines, points deductions, finishing position deductions, time penalties (which must result in the loss of at least one finishing position) and lap deductions. The beginning and ending dates of any such suspension will be as determined by AMA Pro Racing."

"2. Any supplemental rules, regulations, instructions or procedures established by AMA Pro Racing for the purpose of implementing, interpreting or enforcing these rules will be deemed to be part of the rules."

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:blah: :blah: :blah:

"q. Riding at any time in such a manner as to endanger the life or limb of other riders, officials or the public."

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Repeat from above.

"w. Any other act or actions deemed by a Series Manager or AMA Pro Racing to be detrimental to the sport of motorcycle racing and the AMA."

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If this is all they have to hold against him, then it clearly shows that they have absolutely no clue about what is and isn't good for sport that draws more spectators as the flight time increases. But it does protect them from legal actions. Did they call the showoff stunts I watched during the Atlanta hot lap detrimental? I recall a huge whip from Stewart, Nac-Nac from Reed, and Can-Can from Carmichael. All of these were unnecessary, uncelebratory, and solely for the purpose of entertaining the crowd. When the backfip was attempted, the crowd loved it, and pleasing the fans is good for the sport, not bad. I think the only differents was the fact that Travis didn't land this one.

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What I think is funniest: People actually give a rip.

Does Travis care? Probably not. Should we? Probably not. Was Travis fined? No. Is Travis even going to show up to another round this year? Doubtful.

If Deegan had done it, people would be throwing a fit, wanting the AMA to kick him out forever.

If Travis wants to be a goofball he should save it for the half time show. I know I wouldn't want him near me on the track if I was trying to make a living as a racer. Travis has a history of hurting people (sometimes gravely) when show boating - just ask the kid from the car incident.

Chili said:

Has Travis ever injured another racer while showboating on the track? If so I'd love to hear about it.

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LaRocco might have a story for you. :pissed: Even tho it was racing, the Rock might have considered it showboating. :bang: