Where does the factory case splitting tool mount?
- Thread starter reepicheep
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off topic question but from one of your other threads reepicheep
are you not going to put a rod kit in while your in there
and did your research say it was a bad Idea to freeze the crank and warm the bearings
just asking because I have done thing a bit different in the past as far as the crank goes.
I freeze the cranks and heat the main bearings then freeze the whole thing and warm the left case then spend too much time checking and double checking how every piece fit back in then I heat the right case half and finish assembly
are you not going to put a rod kit in while your in there
and did your research say it was a bad Idea to freeze the crank and warm the bearings
just asking because I have done thing a bit different in the past as far as the crank goes.
I freeze the cranks and heat the main bearings then freeze the whole thing and warm the left case then spend too much time checking and double checking how every piece fit back in then I heat the right case half and finish assembly
reepicheep
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Doh! I'm busted....
First, on topic. The research showed a universal opinion that it is a good idea to freeze the crank and bearings.
You first use the frozen bearings and slip them into the hot case... cool is small and hot is big, so they should more or less drop in.
Next, you take a hot slug, and put it in the inner race on the bearing that is now in the case... which expands it. You can then slide the case and bearing over the crank, hopefully without too much drama.
Of course, there are lots of seals and semi drying gasket steps in there...
I think what you are saying is do a cycle where you freeze the crank and heat the bearings and put the bearings on the crank first. Then re-freeze the whole mess, and heat the cases, and assemble that way. That makes great sense as well, thanks!
As for my crank.... It is out and in my hand, and looks perfect. The manual says "from the factory" is like .4 or .5mm of side play between crank and rod, and that it should be replaced if it exceeds .7mm. Mine is under .6mm, and the big end bearings look perfect, as do the side thrust washers. No discernible wear anywhere. And the rod also looks perfect, including the races on the small end. And for perspective, I am an old fat guy that rides for fun, and has a lot of family and job obligations. I'm also not going to go all wobbly kneed and whiny if two years from now I find out I have to split the cases again.
I put like 7500 miles a year on my streetbike, but if I manage to get 20 hours on the KDX next year, it would be a banner year. I love playing in the woods, but family and work come first, so 200 hours may be 10 years for me...
I went over that crank with a microscope, and I just can't find anything wrong. I've decided "not broken is not broken" and its going to go back in as is. I give y'all permission to say "I told you so" when it fails, and I promise not to whine. :)
I should post the formal update to that thread, and I promise to hunt it up again and update it if the crank does end up failing...
First, on topic. The research showed a universal opinion that it is a good idea to freeze the crank and bearings.
You first use the frozen bearings and slip them into the hot case... cool is small and hot is big, so they should more or less drop in.
Next, you take a hot slug, and put it in the inner race on the bearing that is now in the case... which expands it. You can then slide the case and bearing over the crank, hopefully without too much drama.
Of course, there are lots of seals and semi drying gasket steps in there...
I think what you are saying is do a cycle where you freeze the crank and heat the bearings and put the bearings on the crank first. Then re-freeze the whole mess, and heat the cases, and assemble that way. That makes great sense as well, thanks!
As for my crank.... It is out and in my hand, and looks perfect. The manual says "from the factory" is like .4 or .5mm of side play between crank and rod, and that it should be replaced if it exceeds .7mm. Mine is under .6mm, and the big end bearings look perfect, as do the side thrust washers. No discernible wear anywhere. And the rod also looks perfect, including the races on the small end. And for perspective, I am an old fat guy that rides for fun, and has a lot of family and job obligations. I'm also not going to go all wobbly kneed and whiny if two years from now I find out I have to split the cases again.
I put like 7500 miles a year on my streetbike, but if I manage to get 20 hours on the KDX next year, it would be a banner year. I love playing in the woods, but family and work come first, so 200 hours may be 10 years for me...
I went over that crank with a microscope, and I just can't find anything wrong. I've decided "not broken is not broken" and its going to go back in as is. I give y'all permission to say "I told you so" when it fails, and I promise not to whine. :)
I should post the formal update to that thread, and I promise to hunt it up again and update it if the crank does end up failing...
reepicheep
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Its mostly commuting to work and back. It gets 45 MPG like a Prius, but it'll wheelie. :)
Well, and this year, the Buell will probably pick up a couple thousand miles going back and forth to get Kawasaki parts... :think:
Well, and this year, the Buell will probably pick up a couple thousand miles going back and forth to get Kawasaki parts... :think:
reepicheep
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2005 XB9SX... I had a 2000 M2 before then. Both great bikes to ride, and the 9SX has been impossibly cheap to own and maintain.
At 28,000 miles, I am still on the original belt drive, no valve adjustments, and just fluid, brake pad, and tire changes. The couple of minor mechanical issues I have had were self induced by me meddling with things... The M2 on the other hand, had issues. Still a great bike though.
Here is a shot from a Buell sponsored track day...
And yes, for the record, I am that big, the bike is that small, and I am indeed getting passed on the outside by an adventure tourer. :laugh:
At 28,000 miles, I am still on the original belt drive, no valve adjustments, and just fluid, brake pad, and tire changes. The couple of minor mechanical issues I have had were self induced by me meddling with things... The M2 on the other hand, had issues. Still a great bike though.
Here is a shot from a Buell sponsored track day...
And yes, for the record, I am that big, the bike is that small, and I am indeed getting passed on the outside by an adventure tourer. :laugh:
You put the main bearings in the cases. Then install the crank. The crank to bearing clearance is greater than the bearing to case. The case is a press fit, but guys and presses and aluminum cases do not mix well. When I pull a crank and the main bearing is stuck to the crank. That tells me the bearing bore is lose, or worse. Sometimes locktite bearing lock will help. That outer race spinning is not good!
reepicheep
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Well, I put the new crank bearings into the case last night. I was amazed at how easy it was, thanks for the great tips all.
I put the case halves on a few sheets of aluminum on the gas grill, and closed the lid and let it sit. The grill was adjusted to be about 200 degrees (who knows how accurate the thermometer on it is).
The crank bearings had been in the deep freezer for weeks.
The first one (the case half that was in the grill the longest) went perfect. The frozen bearing pretty much dropped right in to the greased bore, no tapping or anything. As soon as it warmed up (even before the case cooled down), it was stuck nice and tight.
The second one (which I left in the grill for a shorter period of time and was no doubt up to temperature) took some very light tapping, but also went in easily and gracefully.
So that is the first hard step, and it was easy.
Now I have a new wrinkle... there is a bearing in there that is a little crunchy that I can't find on the Kawasaki parts diagram... I must be missing something obvious... I'll keep looking. I think the one I was looking at is the bearing goes in the bore circled in red in the image below:
Hmmm. I took it to a bearing shop (before knowing it wasn't on the parts diagram) and they crossed it to one they had in stock, but it was an odd size and was $40... the bearing guy said it was probably just expensive because of their suppliers, and that if I looked around I could probably find it cheaper...
I put the case halves on a few sheets of aluminum on the gas grill, and closed the lid and let it sit. The grill was adjusted to be about 200 degrees (who knows how accurate the thermometer on it is).
The crank bearings had been in the deep freezer for weeks.
The first one (the case half that was in the grill the longest) went perfect. The frozen bearing pretty much dropped right in to the greased bore, no tapping or anything. As soon as it warmed up (even before the case cooled down), it was stuck nice and tight.
The second one (which I left in the grill for a shorter period of time and was no doubt up to temperature) took some very light tapping, but also went in easily and gracefully.
So that is the first hard step, and it was easy.
Now I have a new wrinkle... there is a bearing in there that is a little crunchy that I can't find on the Kawasaki parts diagram... I must be missing something obvious... I'll keep looking. I think the one I was looking at is the bearing goes in the bore circled in red in the image below:
Hmmm. I took it to a bearing shop (before knowing it wasn't on the parts diagram) and they crossed it to one they had in stock, but it was an odd size and was $40... the bearing guy said it was probably just expensive because of their suppliers, and that if I looked around I could probably find it cheaper...
reepicheep
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Ahh! I think I found it. They threw me by not showing the case diagram in context when showing the shift drum setup...
I think that bearing is:
92045 BEARING-BALL
92045-1319 1 $9.43
Unusually cheap for a factory part... somebody at Kawasaki must have missed that one ;)
I think that bearing is:
92045 BEARING-BALL
92045-1319 1 $9.43
Unusually cheap for a factory part... somebody at Kawasaki must have missed that one ;)
being that it was a shift drum bearing you probably could just clean it real good and be fine as turns only 10 degree at a time and it does not spin at high speeds.
the ones in the tranny to really look closely at though is the primary shaft bearings
(the shaft the clutch basket is attached to) as they spin almost as much as your main crank bearing and have huge amounts of pressure they must bear.
Isn't it a bitch finding that one more piece that needs to be ordered when assembling and engine!!! I had an 84 xl350r that took 8 months!!!
the ones in the tranny to really look closely at though is the primary shaft bearings
(the shaft the clutch basket is attached to) as they spin almost as much as your main crank bearing and have huge amounts of pressure they must bear.
Isn't it a bitch finding that one more piece that needs to be ordered when assembling and engine!!! I had an 84 xl350r that took 8 months!!!
reepicheep
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No kidding... you make a list, hunt up the best places to get it (ebay / dennis kirk / rocky mountain / local beaing supplier / dealer) then order the stuff and try and track it, only to find out you need that *one* extra seal, which of course will cost $10 from the dealer, or $1 (plus $8 shipping) aftermarket.
Fortunately (?) I have a torn ACL, and bought the "project KDX" expecting to spend the summer rebuilding it anyway... so I am going slow and relaxed. A lot more fun that way. The Dr. says I can't ride dirt until Nov regardless, that leaves me a lot of time to get it all sorted out.
Good thing... as I don't think there will be a single thing anywhere on this bike that I didn't remove and inspect, clean, and replace if necessary. I'm going to have the newest old KDX on the planet :)
Fortunately (?) I have a torn ACL, and bought the "project KDX" expecting to spend the summer rebuilding it anyway... so I am going slow and relaxed. A lot more fun that way. The Dr. says I can't ride dirt until Nov regardless, that leaves me a lot of time to get it all sorted out.
Good thing... as I don't think there will be a single thing anywhere on this bike that I didn't remove and inspect, clean, and replace if necessary. I'm going to have the newest old KDX on the planet :)
I never appreciated a good parts guy so much until, I had to search and shag it myself. There was mention earlier about putting the bearings on the crank first? A really bad idea. It can go all the way against the crank, and not seat into the bore all the way. I am glad you chose properly. For the price, replace the other 4 bearings is a good idea. Especially the left main shaft, its a blind hole bearing on a lot of bikes. That bearing you bought is probably a more precise bearing than needed.
reepicheep
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That is the only bearing inside the split that I have not already replaced. Every other bearing and seal in there is new.
I pulled it originally, and it felt a little crunchy, and figured I might as well replace it. When I heard the $40 price tag from the bearing shop (they were 1/2 Kawasaki prices on the other bearings), I passed on that one and came back and cleaned the original up. It feels fine, and like you say, the shift drum doesn't demand much of a bearing in the first place.
The other "expirement" is that one of the crank seals is from the bearing shop, not from Kawasaki. I bent one in my "kit" trying to put it in the cases... probably should have frozen those and heated the cases to get those in as well, I wasn't expecting such a fight. So I got an oil seal from the bearing shop... they said it is top quality and will work well. It looks different then both the factory part and the aftermarket part... but if anything looks better made. No exposed metal anywhere, stiffer construction on the metal, better lips, easier to install (more fully formed cups).
Its a little bit of a risk, but I think it will be fine. I'll post if it goes badly...
I'm not naive and thinking that the first time I split the cases and do a total rebuild that I will be guaranteed to get everything perfect the first time. I'm trying obsessively to do so, but if it goes together and has to come apart again for some reason (like that seal failing after 4000 miles or so), that's just part of the cost of learning... There's a reason a good mechanic will bill $80 an hour...
I pulled it originally, and it felt a little crunchy, and figured I might as well replace it. When I heard the $40 price tag from the bearing shop (they were 1/2 Kawasaki prices on the other bearings), I passed on that one and came back and cleaned the original up. It feels fine, and like you say, the shift drum doesn't demand much of a bearing in the first place.
The other "expirement" is that one of the crank seals is from the bearing shop, not from Kawasaki. I bent one in my "kit" trying to put it in the cases... probably should have frozen those and heated the cases to get those in as well, I wasn't expecting such a fight. So I got an oil seal from the bearing shop... they said it is top quality and will work well. It looks different then both the factory part and the aftermarket part... but if anything looks better made. No exposed metal anywhere, stiffer construction on the metal, better lips, easier to install (more fully formed cups).
Its a little bit of a risk, but I think it will be fine. I'll post if it goes badly...
I'm not naive and thinking that the first time I split the cases and do a total rebuild that I will be guaranteed to get everything perfect the first time. I'm trying obsessively to do so, but if it goes together and has to come apart again for some reason (like that seal failing after 4000 miles or so), that's just part of the cost of learning... There's a reason a good mechanic will bill $80 an hour...
As long as the seal is in the normal position, outside the main bearing(stupid suzuki does put some on the inside?) you can replace it later without splitting the case.
reepicheep
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Count Kawasaki in with Suzuki on this one, most of those seals in there are sealed from inside the split :(
A VERY odd set up to me, go red! No way that lubing that right main bearing with contaminated trans fluid is a better idea?
reepicheep
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Makes no sense to me either. There is a lip that the seals sit against, I suppose you could carve those off and put small tapped holes to bolt plates on to retain the seal in lieu of those lips, and replace them without an engine split.
Mine (as sold by previous owner) was leaking through the crank seal into the stator... where the oil then started dissolving the insulation, and ruined it.
A leaking seal seems like a stupid thing to have to split the case to fix, but here we are.
Mine (as sold by previous owner) was leaking through the crank seal into the stator... where the oil then started dissolving the insulation, and ruined it.
A leaking seal seems like a stupid thing to have to split the case to fix, but here we are.
When racing was going down, the seals and bearings had to be replaced mid season at least, just because. The only seals I have seen go bad was from a bearing going out. That was a new bike, not an older bike with questionable maintenance. I stretched mine enough as it was! That seal material does not last long before it gets brittle and worn. Especially sitting for long periods/years.julien_d said:
reepicheep
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Apples to oranges I know, but with the crank seal on the old style (tuber) Buells (a hopped up sportster motor) you will start to see them failing around 20k miles, though many will go 30k or even 50k miles. FWIW, you can replace those without a case split. Heck, for the old Buells (pre XB), you can replace the transmission without a case split.
Which probably just makes the point that it's not that big a deal for a KDX motor, which isn't going anywhere near 20k miles without splitting the cases for some other reason anyway.
Which probably just makes the point that it's not that big a deal for a KDX motor, which isn't going anywhere near 20k miles without splitting the cases for some other reason anyway.
If you had premix in the ignition cover, you may want to check the three indented areas behind the stator. The steel bearing recess and aluminum case heat up at differing rates and on occasion will allow the passage. Check with your dealer or search for old FRP Offroad tips on how to roughen up the three areas and apply J-B Weld or similar to "caulk up" the areas. It is an old Team Green tip, also mentioned by Eric Gorr in his books. I think he mentions it on a KX60.
reepicheep
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Thanks, I will look into that.
reepicheep
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DOH! Warning... the factory service manual (correct one) shows a picture of the crank that is WRONG. They must have reused the older picture from a previous manual, it sure ain't the KDX-200 H1 crank, thats for sure.
In the midst of a controlled panic using four hands to keep parts hot and goo spread and parts cold and cases aligned as they press together a case, that could lead a guy to look at the picture, say "this end of the crank isn't that one", and flip the crank over to drop it in the hot bearings. :bang: :bang: :bang:
At the same moment the bearings cool down and clamp back down on the crank, it will be obvious that that other side doesn't match the picture either. :coocoo:
So it's all back apart now, and all the permatex ultra grey is scraped back off, and the parts are back in the deep freeze for another try later today :(
The temperature trick makes it easy to put together with no crank stress... so that's good news. Try two should go well now that I have been through it before... it's not actually that bad, just lots of aligning of planets and a bit of a stressful mad rush if something starts to go wrong.
In the midst of a controlled panic using four hands to keep parts hot and goo spread and parts cold and cases aligned as they press together a case, that could lead a guy to look at the picture, say "this end of the crank isn't that one", and flip the crank over to drop it in the hot bearings. :bang: :bang: :bang:
At the same moment the bearings cool down and clamp back down on the crank, it will be obvious that that other side doesn't match the picture either. :coocoo:
So it's all back apart now, and all the permatex ultra grey is scraped back off, and the parts are back in the deep freeze for another try later today :(
The temperature trick makes it easy to put together with no crank stress... so that's good news. Try two should go well now that I have been through it before... it's not actually that bad, just lots of aligning of planets and a bit of a stressful mad rush if something starts to go wrong.
