Seriously. I have a KDX220 I have owned for about 6 months after not having ridden for many years. I find that track riding is still the only thing that really interests me,and while I love my bike,I am thinking about a 250 2 stroke or maybe a 250 or 450 4 stroke.I'm 47 years old and really out of shape(or in shape if round and flabby is ideal).I don't plan on racing,so that is not a factor. I raced many years ago and haven't owned a 4 stroke since my 1975 XR75.I raced 2 strokes for many years and I have not ridden the modern 4 strokes. I don't have alot of money for cutting edge upkeep and fear the new 4 strokes may need too much maintainence.Or is that true only when they are being ridden really hard? And when I say new I really mean new to me.I'm thinking about a 5 to 8 year old bike. Any old 2 stroke riders out there that have switched(or not switched) that can tell me why I should or shouldn't consider a 4 stroke. Thanks!
Why should I buy a 2002 YZ426f?
- Thread starter flapwick
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kaboom1371
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- Jan 15, 2008
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I'm a smoker by heart.. but, these 4t's are coming a long ways.....I just bought my son an 07 kx250f and I am pretty impressed with it. so impressed that I got a little cocky on it and busted up some ribs pretty bad. lots of low end....I might have to buy one for myself....really....
My CRF is my first. I love it and hate it. Usually, more love it. I like to wrench. I don't put alot of hours on it. I love that the power is like a 125 on top and a 250 smoker on the bottom with a smooth transition in between. It makes for a very controllable bike. If you plan to ride alot of hours or don't like wrenching on your bike a simpler 2t might be better for you.
flapwick said:
Based on what you've said and the age of the bikes you are considering, unless you plan on buying an air cooled XR, you have no business owning a used four-stroke. That's not a criticism, just an honest appraisal of what you've posted.
I own both a YZ125 & 250's, ('06's,) and love both of them. Both handle & ride worlds better than the KDX, (had an '06 in my possession a year ago.) The 125 is easier to ride, both have great bottom end when tuned correctly, (jetting, timing, good fuel, FWW, etc.) I think you'd be impressed with either. I weigh more than you, older, and also took many years off. Get a set of springs from a 250F or 450F, and the suspension will be great.
Just my $.02, though.
Just my $.02, though.
- Thread starter
- #6
Thanks,everybody! Hey Rich,why is it that I have no business owning a 4 stroke? I took no offense,but you gave no reasons.Is it because I don't have upkeep money? Is it because I have adult acne? Is it my breath? Are the older watercooled 4 strokes not really a good buy? Talk to me.....I'm here for you,bro.
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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I think there is a risk when buying an older 'racing' four stroke that the previous owner has neglected important and costly maintenance items such as valve springs and valves. Failure of one of those items can easily take out your head, cylinder, piston and possibly the bottom end.
Most race bike owners also tend to ignore recommended replacement intervals on crankshafts, but that also applies to 2 strokes, and you will probably get away with that one for light duty/occasional use (most riders do).
For your use, IMO a 250 two stroke MX bike will have plenty of performance and give you more bang for your hard earned buck.
For me, the 450's are more tiring to ride due to them being more powerful and slightly heavier. But they are a blast, too, and do have more motor.
The suspension on all of your options will be miles better than your KDX for MX.
Most race bike owners also tend to ignore recommended replacement intervals on crankshafts, but that also applies to 2 strokes, and you will probably get away with that one for light duty/occasional use (most riders do).
For your use, IMO a 250 two stroke MX bike will have plenty of performance and give you more bang for your hard earned buck.
For me, the 450's are more tiring to ride due to them being more powerful and slightly heavier. But they are a blast, too, and do have more motor.
The suspension on all of your options will be miles better than your KDX for MX.
flapwick said:
Any late model MX four-stroke that is 5-8 years old will require real maintenance, unless you find one that was meticulously maintained by a mechanic that actually understands and follows the service intervals these bikes require. The three or four bikes on the planet that actually fit this description already have homes. ;) Anyone buying one this old has to be honest about what they are getting themselves into. For what it's worth, it's rare for anyone selling one of these bikes to be 100% honest about the maintenance it has seen.
Based on your description a clean used 125 with a 144 big bore kit installed would provide a ton of affordable fun, and fit your requirements. They are easy to find and easy/cheap to maintain.
Buying a brand new four-stroke and riding it the way you describe might prove to be a workable option, but old used high-rpm four-strokes only prove to be a good value for a select few.
dirt bike dave
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- May 3, 2000
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Rich Rohrich said:
Rich, in the KDX forum, flapwick included the additional info that he weighs 250+-. Would that change your recommendation?
How do 144 maintenance costs compare to a 250 2t? Will the 144 need pistons, rings and cranks more often? What is the ballpark costs to convert a 125 to a 144 and do it right?
I've never had the chance to ride a 144 - would love to someday.
Dave - I was 240 with gear when I had a blast riding a Suzuki 144 one season. The 144 is still a 125 at it's core so it will require more maintenance than a 250 2t, just like a 250 will require more than a 500. ;) The Suzuki 125s seem to be especially good candidates for the conversion, both in terms of power and reliability.
A quick check at Eric Gorr's site shows:
RM125 1976-81 144cc $265 (Sleeved cyls)
RM125 1989-2007 144cc $495
For 2-stroke engines, the package deals include;
Cleaning and disassembly
Inspection and measurement
Over-boring
Porting
Replating
Diamond honing
Head mods
Powervalve service
Piston and gasket kits.
You’ll get your choice of powerbands; more low/mid, more mid/top, broader powerband, and choices of fuel; pump or race gas.
Other bikes have similar pricing : http://www.ericgorr.com/bigboremasterlist.html
It's really a fun bike, that is easy to live with.
Bruce Clapham (bclapham) rode the wheels off of his 144, so maybe he'll see this and add his thoughts.
Dave Hollub (oldguy) just had Eric build him a 144 engine for his 2003 RM. Dave is a big guy and coming off a Yamaha 250F, so it should be interesting to hear his thoughts as well.
A quick check at Eric Gorr's site shows:
RM125 1976-81 144cc $265 (Sleeved cyls)
RM125 1989-2007 144cc $495
For 2-stroke engines, the package deals include;
Cleaning and disassembly
Inspection and measurement
Over-boring
Porting
Replating
Diamond honing
Head mods
Powervalve service
Piston and gasket kits.
You’ll get your choice of powerbands; more low/mid, more mid/top, broader powerband, and choices of fuel; pump or race gas.
Other bikes have similar pricing : http://www.ericgorr.com/bigboremasterlist.html
It's really a fun bike, that is easy to live with.
Bruce Clapham (bclapham) rode the wheels off of his 144, so maybe he'll see this and add his thoughts.
Dave Hollub (oldguy) just had Eric build him a 144 engine for his 2003 RM. Dave is a big guy and coming off a Yamaha 250F, so it should be interesting to hear his thoughts as well.
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dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
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:cool: Thanks, Rich.
If ported for low/mid, how does the low end power and delivery compare to a 250 2t or 250f? Will it still wind out like a 125, or do you need the high rpm port job for that?
For me, I don't do track, but am interested in how a low/mid ported 144 handles difficult trail obstacles like single track rock and root infested first and 2nd gear hill climbs at high elevation. Spark arrestor required.
I think the light weight of the bike would be awesome for technical single track, but for me, I would be worried about low end power and fuel consumption on long loops.
If ported for low/mid, how does the low end power and delivery compare to a 250 2t or 250f? Will it still wind out like a 125, or do you need the high rpm port job for that?
For me, I don't do track, but am interested in how a low/mid ported 144 handles difficult trail obstacles like single track rock and root infested first and 2nd gear hill climbs at high elevation. Spark arrestor required.
I think the light weight of the bike would be awesome for technical single track, but for me, I would be worried about low end power and fuel consumption on long loops.
dirt bike dave said:
A 250f will usually have an advantage, it's the nature of the beast, but the 144 is a reasonable compromise in my opinion. Most of my 250 2t time was on Maicos in the 70s, so I'm not sure my thoughts on the subject have much value. :whoa:
The 144 with low to mid porting signs off earlier than a traditional 125, but the power spread kind of changes your riding style, in much the same way a 250F does. Like most mods, you give some to get some. On balance it works pretty damn good.
Not sure on fuel consumption. I never paid any attention, Eric could probably give you some good info.
Eric did some work with Pat Smage's 125cc Sherco trials engines, so the type of power you are looking for isn't foreign to him. Building the power characteristics you want is just a matter of identifying your preferences when you talk to him.
He builds engines to the customer's requirement as much as possible.
Many people remember what 125cc 2-T's were like years ago, and have never ridden a modern 125.
I'll tell you, you are in for a suprise! My '03 YZ125 impressed me, and my '06 is even better. I weigh 240+ lbs. nekkid, and I'm certain that my rejetted '06 has better bottom end than my unmodified, stock jetted '81 YZ250H has, (even with the IT250 pipe I put on it.)
Powervalves, combined with modern jetting, have done amazing things to give 2-T's great powerbands. :cool:
I have no doubt that when I have Eric work on my 125 cyl. I'll likely only use my '06 YZ250 for night (E-line lighting coil,) or fast (WR426 trans.) riding, as I'm already faster in almost all situations on my 125 now. (I am still looking for a wide-ratio trans. and a lighting kit for my 125!)
Do not assume that a modern 125, when jetted properly, is lacking anywhere; it's not. (Getting the jetting right did make a huge difference, however.)
You owe it to yourself to try out a 125 2-T. :nod:
I'll tell you, you are in for a suprise! My '03 YZ125 impressed me, and my '06 is even better. I weigh 240+ lbs. nekkid, and I'm certain that my rejetted '06 has better bottom end than my unmodified, stock jetted '81 YZ250H has, (even with the IT250 pipe I put on it.)
Powervalves, combined with modern jetting, have done amazing things to give 2-T's great powerbands. :cool:
I have no doubt that when I have Eric work on my 125 cyl. I'll likely only use my '06 YZ250 for night (E-line lighting coil,) or fast (WR426 trans.) riding, as I'm already faster in almost all situations on my 125 now. (I am still looking for a wide-ratio trans. and a lighting kit for my 125!)
Do not assume that a modern 125, when jetted properly, is lacking anywhere; it's not. (Getting the jetting right did make a huge difference, however.)
You owe it to yourself to try out a 125 2-T. :nod:
- Thread starter
- #14
First I felt like a naked piece of meat,having all my personal laundry exposed to the 4 stroke world when I thought it was safely tucked away in "Dave's KDX". Then I felt like a retarded bystander as the people around me forgot about me and started talking way over my head.Or maybe like Bill Murray in the old "cheeburger,cheeburger,cheeburger" sketch where he just kind of nods stupidly because he doesn't understand the language. And then SpDyKen came along and I realized I was okay. That the world had not passed me by. That I was still a proud,fat American who looks like a dork on a woods bike trying to fly with the MXers while my plummers crack shines lily white in the warm glow of a California sunset. God Bless America!!! (Ken,I'm still having a hard time believing a 125 will haul me around as fast as I need to go to clear doubles and triples.But I always reserve the right to be really wrong in my opinions)
2strokerfun
Member
- May 19, 2006
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Rich Rohrich said:
Of course, there is nothing wrong with an air cooled XR. For many people they are the perfect bike. Torquey and bullet-proof, for the most part.
I think that if you buy a used 2-stroke, the first thing you do is pull the cylinder off and inspect the piston and cylinder. Relatively easy to do and not expensive if you need to replace the top end. Likewise, if you buy a used racing four stroke, you'll also probably be money ahead by tearing the engine down and inspecting it first. Heck of a lot cheaper and easier to replace a piston, valves, springs (or whatever else) when they are still working, than after one of them craters. And you have a good baseline for knowing the real condition of the engine for all future maintenance decisions.
It's a good kind of problem.
2strokerfun said:
I agree with this.
If my XR400 engine fit in my CR250 frame...I would be permanently set for woods riding. Ideally, the XR400 engine would be somewhat smaller and lighter...but its the flexy frame, weak footpegs, and excessively high seat position that make me dislike the factory chassis (edit: clarification...for motocross)
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I didn't mean to make it sound like an XR was bad. An air cooled XR400 in a modern chassis that was street legal would be a bike I would buy in a heartbeat. I really miss my XR660 SuperMoto bike. It was one of the best I've ever owned.
The XRs are just ill suited as an MX bike for most riders.
The XRs are just ill suited as an MX bike for most riders.
I agree with you too Rich...I destroyed my first XR400 trying to MX it...footpegs and frame suffering the most.
I can see where my 1st response was confusing. I was just hoping by typing it, I could go home and find my XR400 engine in one of my CR frames ready to go riding. Hopefully they would have swept and organized stuff also.
More on topic, I think the 250Fs are MUCH easier to ride and more fun on the track than two strokes. 450s are a bit much for my lack of guts or skill. I am 250 lbs and a 250f will toss me over anything I am going to attempt. If I could trade my 2.5 CR250 two strokes for a brand new Honda or Yamaha 250f...I would do it without hesitation.
2strokerfun
Member
- May 19, 2006
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Rich: I don't think anyone took your statement as degrading to XRs. I only wanted to point out that I think these bikes are often overlooked in favor of "new technology" by a lot of people who have no business owning a high-maintenance F1 engine. I know people who have no business owning a B&S-powered lawn mower.
I agree upon re-reading the original post, an XR is probably not the best bet for an admittedly "round" person who mainly likes riding track. But the older I get, the more I like the XR's I used to turn up my nose at when I was younger.
Of course one of the next choices I might have had for the flapwick, is the bike he already owns.
I agree upon re-reading the original post, an XR is probably not the best bet for an admittedly "round" person who mainly likes riding track. But the older I get, the more I like the XR's I used to turn up my nose at when I was younger.
Of course one of the next choices I might have had for the flapwick, is the bike he already owns.
- Thread starter
- #20
There's noplace like home,2strokerfun.Went riding today and pretty much came to the conclusion that I've still got alot of growing room in my KDX220.There probably is not a better bike for me and my needs and the 1100 dollars I paid for it.Dollar for dollar,pound for pound,I can't do any better.But If I could make a bike appear by using my good looks and charm.......there'd be a brand new 250 2 stroke on my trailer.And my son could use his charm and good looks to get daddy a crf450f.(he's already got an RM85)Thanks for listening!Time to go out and put the KDX220 back in it's rightful place at the top of the 219-221cc class motocross mountain and I shall be King! In fact,did I mention that I am the reigning 220cc World Motocross Champion? I defy you to find any other name than mine at the top of that list.
- Thread starter
- #21
Perhaps I spoke too soon. A guy just offered to trade me his 2002 YZ426f for my KDX. He's actually been looking for a KDX220 (or 200)and saw my trade offer on craigslist. I'm going to ride it this Sunday at the track. What can anyone out there tell me about this particular model,and maybe what to look out for on used 4 strokes in general. Thanks,from Mr. Wishy-Washy.
- Thread starter
- #22
2002 YZ426f
How does this machine rate,generally speaking? I have an offer to trade one for my KDX 220. I've never ridden a modern 4 stroke,so I'm excited about trying it this Sunday at the track. Anybody have experience with this particular bike? Is it dependable? Weaknesses? Strengths? Forget about who I am,or what's best for me,or not best for me. I would really appreciate simply hearing some straight forward information on 2002 YZ426f's. Thanks alot.
How does this machine rate,generally speaking? I have an offer to trade one for my KDX 220. I've never ridden a modern 4 stroke,so I'm excited about trying it this Sunday at the track. Anybody have experience with this particular bike? Is it dependable? Weaknesses? Strengths? Forget about who I am,or what's best for me,or not best for me. I would really appreciate simply hearing some straight forward information on 2002 YZ426f's. Thanks alot.
The 426 was a learning process for yamaha. the 02 is the best year of them, but the 450s are way better. Especially the aluminum frames.
First off there is not autodecompression on the cam. You have to learn the starting drill or install a 450 exhaust cam.
Handling is not great on the bike. suspension really needs some work front and rear.
motor is great on them, especially with the newer exhaust cam. Very reliable also.
Carb, 02 is the best. Still needs work to get jetted properly. They dont have a leak jet in them to adjust the AP circuit easily, so you have to modify the carb body with the BK mod.
Ergos are old now.
The KDX2x0 bikes are great in the woods. If that is what you ride, keep it. If you want a track bike, the 426 is dated. You would be better off spending a few dollars more on a 05+ crf450 or 06+ YZ450.
First off there is not autodecompression on the cam. You have to learn the starting drill or install a 450 exhaust cam.
Handling is not great on the bike. suspension really needs some work front and rear.
motor is great on them, especially with the newer exhaust cam. Very reliable also.
Carb, 02 is the best. Still needs work to get jetted properly. They dont have a leak jet in them to adjust the AP circuit easily, so you have to modify the carb body with the BK mod.
Ergos are old now.
The KDX2x0 bikes are great in the woods. If that is what you ride, keep it. If you want a track bike, the 426 is dated. You would be better off spending a few dollars more on a 05+ crf450 or 06+ YZ450.
- Thread starter
- #24
Thank you,Matt.Part of the beauty of the trade is that I won't be putting out money that I don't have. I'm guessing that an outdated 426f is still going to be a better motocross bike than a KDX woods bike.I bought the KDX thinking I would ride trails also,but I don't.Plus the price was really good,and maintainence is minimal.Along with a predisposition to 2 strokes,and no real experience with modern 4 strokes,it was and may continue to be a good fit for me.I'll find out Sunday if I like the YZf.
- Thread starter
- #25
Hey moderators,I understand why you combined my topics.But could you please put it under the "2002 YZ426f " heading,as that is the focus of my interest and curiousity.You can delete the "Why should I buy a 4 stroke" questions and answers if you like. Thanks,flapwick
