Anaheim 2 SPOILER
- Thread starter funktree
- Start date
dirt bike dave
Sponsoring Member
- May 3, 2000
- 5,348
- 3
I'm a 2 stroke fan, but it's pretty obvious that the weapon of choice for the SX class is the CRF450. Go to the AMA page and check out the riders who qualified for the evening program. Out of 40 riders, about 50% in the SX class are on Honda 4 strokes every week. Oh, and about 1/3 of the Lites class that makes the program are also on 4 stroke Hondas.
Wardy, did you listen to that broadcast? Eric was saying that RC hadn't decided, he had a 2-T and a 4-T ready for the first round .... and the other guy was talking about riders maybe switching back and forth. Doesn't sound like the factorys are telling them what to ride?
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
- 2,681
- 9
I think very clearly that they will ride thumpers. if you think for a nano second that "sales" doesn't dictate which direction this is going then I got a bridge to sell ya. Sure they will ride what they want, after they "proove" they don't like this bike or the other.
1. Factorys are bent and determined to sell the customer the machine they make the most money on and will continue to with parts.
2. It's the the latest craze, lets face you read in all the mags and in all the post boards, 2 strokes are dead.......ok why, go back to number one. Its no more a political spin then the democrats saying the republicans got more money from the abrahm.......the only reason they are pissed they didnt' get more.
3. Ricky saying that crap is all game playing in the heads of the other riders. Specailly james. He has to get into the kids head to beat him. Proof was last weekend. I have beat a bunch of riders, not because i was faster, but because all they thought about was me and not thier racing. James mechanic had it on the pit board, he knows.
4. AND for the grand finally, how many years has it been since the "tracks" have been an issue. I remember, it's when everyone was complaining that the tracks are to tuff and only MC can win.........i am an ole putz but the tracks are an issue for one main reason. They ALL are riding OPEN BIKES out there. OPEN bikes handle different, turn different and have to be riden different! Can't wait to see how nasty daytona will be, where bailey won't cut these boys any slack. Then like last year we will see who tuf's it out. Throwing those turds around in that sand and herky jerky terrain, that will be a race. Only way that gets better............. if it rains all friggin day! :laugh:
5. You guys may think i am full of crap, but its about money and sales. Its the reason there is teams, its the reason there are race tracks, its why this all happens. As long as the Factorys pay all the bills, CCE runs all the big races (npg outdoor) and they are AMA sanctioned, I will stake my 30 plus years in this sport that the one that pays the bills will direct the way the process goes.
like always I do believe this to be true, but hell I ride a 500 that has to be "hand" built, and rode maicos til 1995 so unless Nikki tells me different i don't listen well!
:aj:
1. Factorys are bent and determined to sell the customer the machine they make the most money on and will continue to with parts.
2. It's the the latest craze, lets face you read in all the mags and in all the post boards, 2 strokes are dead.......ok why, go back to number one. Its no more a political spin then the democrats saying the republicans got more money from the abrahm.......the only reason they are pissed they didnt' get more.
3. Ricky saying that crap is all game playing in the heads of the other riders. Specailly james. He has to get into the kids head to beat him. Proof was last weekend. I have beat a bunch of riders, not because i was faster, but because all they thought about was me and not thier racing. James mechanic had it on the pit board, he knows.
4. AND for the grand finally, how many years has it been since the "tracks" have been an issue. I remember, it's when everyone was complaining that the tracks are to tuff and only MC can win.........i am an ole putz but the tracks are an issue for one main reason. They ALL are riding OPEN BIKES out there. OPEN bikes handle different, turn different and have to be riden different! Can't wait to see how nasty daytona will be, where bailey won't cut these boys any slack. Then like last year we will see who tuf's it out. Throwing those turds around in that sand and herky jerky terrain, that will be a race. Only way that gets better............. if it rains all friggin day! :laugh:
5. You guys may think i am full of crap, but its about money and sales. Its the reason there is teams, its the reason there are race tracks, its why this all happens. As long as the Factorys pay all the bills, CCE runs all the big races (npg outdoor) and they are AMA sanctioned, I will stake my 30 plus years in this sport that the one that pays the bills will direct the way the process goes.
like always I do believe this to be true, but hell I ride a 500 that has to be "hand" built, and rode maicos til 1995 so unless Nikki tells me different i don't listen well!
:aj:
wardy
2005 Lori Nyland Award Winner
- Nov 12, 1999
- 2,681
- 9
wow i got it from the big guns today. LOL do yourself proud I seen a "whataburger" the other day. Added that to menu, course those I seen were in AZ.
Riders lying, na to harsh, but guarantee you they are spending more and more time in the class room, being taught to "promote". The product and the spin line, today, diesels. Everyone in the pro side of this sport seems to follow NASCAR and its habits, they don't say nuthin in front of that camera/microphone that isn't some what "approved"........ Thats all i am saying and I (key word) believe that.
Example what happened when one of those Big three decided to do the right thing and get another "bid" on the supercross series.......CCE went out and bought and paid all the rental fees for most all the stadiums for many years.........now they paid a huge lawsuit for that little stunt didn't they LOL>.
You don't think this sport isn't controlled by who pays the bills?
call it what you like.
;)
walks like a duck?
Riders lying, na to harsh, but guarantee you they are spending more and more time in the class room, being taught to "promote". The product and the spin line, today, diesels. Everyone in the pro side of this sport seems to follow NASCAR and its habits, they don't say nuthin in front of that camera/microphone that isn't some what "approved"........ Thats all i am saying and I (key word) believe that.
Example what happened when one of those Big three decided to do the right thing and get another "bid" on the supercross series.......CCE went out and bought and paid all the rental fees for most all the stadiums for many years.........now they paid a huge lawsuit for that little stunt didn't they LOL>.
You don't think this sport isn't controlled by who pays the bills?
call it what you like.
;)
walks like a duck?
nikki said:
And what a cute little........ Oops I better not your say that, Red will beat me up!!! :laugh: :laugh:
Actually Tyler Evans has ridden the RMZ450 the last two rounds as well, so the bike must be better and the ride of CHOICE. Tyler is totally anti-factory and he would ride the 2 smoke just to rub it in there face. The majority of the field is now 4 stroke, even the privateers who does not have a factory telling them what to do, so I don't buy the "factory made me ride this theory". I was once a two stroke die hard, but have recently seen the light and love my 4 stroke. :ride:
The thumper advantage isn't so clear in the big class as it was in the 125's. Which is why we even have this debate.
When the field was 50/50 mix of thumpers and 2 strokes, you still watched the better riders...not the 450's.
But, if you have a feeling that there -MIGHT- be an advantage with the thumper.....and then you find out that RC is going to the 450F?......what are you gonna do?
Micah
When the field was 50/50 mix of thumpers and 2 strokes, you still watched the better riders...not the 450's.
But, if you have a feeling that there -MIGHT- be an advantage with the thumper.....and then you find out that RC is going to the 450F?......what are you gonna do?
Micah
nikki
Moto Junkie
- Apr 21, 2000
- 5,802
- 1
I'm with you Philip. Yep, the top 10 in each class are on thumpers, and *maybe* there is some manufacturer pressure to ride the 4-stroke, the bike of the future, the bike with the bigger profit margin.... whatever.
But lets look as some A2 facts:
- Approx 6 2-strokes out of 60 riders in the SX class (90% on thumpers)
- 0 2-strokes out of 80 riders in the Lites class (100% on thumpers)
- Total of 6 2-strokes out of 140 riders (96% on thumpers)
All 140 of these riders are trying to make a living racing SX, or at least have a good race and get noticed by a sponsor/team (and of which only 30-40 max are getting paid from the manufacturers, leaving over 100 privateers). And EVERYONE is choosing the thumper. Out of their own pockets, or not.
And if it was true as the 2-stroke holdouts claim that "thumpers cost so much more in maintenance and require more maintenance" then that means the 100 privateer riders and privateer teams are not only choosing a thumper over a 2-stroke, they are also accepting the extra cost and maintenance out of their pocket, which is tight already as they are trying to travel the US racing with no hefty salary of any kind. (side note - we've been racing thumpers since '01-'02 and have seen the exact opposite on our maintenance time and expenses, as have many of our friends who have been racing thumpers for several years now, as we have spent far less money and time on thumper maintenance versus 2-strokes - maybe we're just the lucky few, or maybe it's because we practice simple preventative maintenance)
And if the other 2-stroke holdout myth that "thumpers are so heavy, awkward, don't turn, etc." was true, then all of these 100 privateer riders and teams are also choosing to ride a tank of a bike in a tight SX situation. I don't buy it. Most anyone who rides a late model thumper knows they have come a long way from the YZ400F days and are lighter and slimmer and now corner like a 2-stroke. I don't see anyone in SX having a hard time hitting the inside line.
Another thing about the manufacturer pressure for their top riders to ride thumpers.... seems funny when I see shops having brand new '03, '04, '05 2-strokes left in their inventory and they are selling them for thousands under MSRP. I've even heard that the shops are forced to put X amount of 2-strokes on their floor if they want to have enough 4-strokes on the floor. Then they get stuck with the 2-strokes and give them away. You would think that the manufacturers would push a few of their top riders to ride 2-strokes, as Yamaha did making Brett Metcalfe ride the "all new" '05 YZ 125 last year. Well, it didn't help, sales still were down and you can find a brand new '05 YZ 125 for a closeout price anywhere. And Brett hated the bike and started winning SX races once he switched to a 250F. If the manufacturers don't start proving that the 2-strokes can still be competitive, then seems like they are going to drop more 2-strokes from their production lines, as Kawasaki did with their KX 125 for 2006. Even Bubba winning every weekend on the KX 125 2-stroke wasn't enough to sell the bike, and Kawasaki called it quits and cut their losses on wasting their time and money with producing the bike.
But lets look as some A2 facts:
- Approx 6 2-strokes out of 60 riders in the SX class (90% on thumpers)
- 0 2-strokes out of 80 riders in the Lites class (100% on thumpers)
- Total of 6 2-strokes out of 140 riders (96% on thumpers)
All 140 of these riders are trying to make a living racing SX, or at least have a good race and get noticed by a sponsor/team (and of which only 30-40 max are getting paid from the manufacturers, leaving over 100 privateers). And EVERYONE is choosing the thumper. Out of their own pockets, or not.
And if it was true as the 2-stroke holdouts claim that "thumpers cost so much more in maintenance and require more maintenance" then that means the 100 privateer riders and privateer teams are not only choosing a thumper over a 2-stroke, they are also accepting the extra cost and maintenance out of their pocket, which is tight already as they are trying to travel the US racing with no hefty salary of any kind. (side note - we've been racing thumpers since '01-'02 and have seen the exact opposite on our maintenance time and expenses, as have many of our friends who have been racing thumpers for several years now, as we have spent far less money and time on thumper maintenance versus 2-strokes - maybe we're just the lucky few, or maybe it's because we practice simple preventative maintenance)
And if the other 2-stroke holdout myth that "thumpers are so heavy, awkward, don't turn, etc." was true, then all of these 100 privateer riders and teams are also choosing to ride a tank of a bike in a tight SX situation. I don't buy it. Most anyone who rides a late model thumper knows they have come a long way from the YZ400F days and are lighter and slimmer and now corner like a 2-stroke. I don't see anyone in SX having a hard time hitting the inside line.
Another thing about the manufacturer pressure for their top riders to ride thumpers.... seems funny when I see shops having brand new '03, '04, '05 2-strokes left in their inventory and they are selling them for thousands under MSRP. I've even heard that the shops are forced to put X amount of 2-strokes on their floor if they want to have enough 4-strokes on the floor. Then they get stuck with the 2-strokes and give them away. You would think that the manufacturers would push a few of their top riders to ride 2-strokes, as Yamaha did making Brett Metcalfe ride the "all new" '05 YZ 125 last year. Well, it didn't help, sales still were down and you can find a brand new '05 YZ 125 for a closeout price anywhere. And Brett hated the bike and started winning SX races once he switched to a 250F. If the manufacturers don't start proving that the 2-strokes can still be competitive, then seems like they are going to drop more 2-strokes from their production lines, as Kawasaki did with their KX 125 for 2006. Even Bubba winning every weekend on the KX 125 2-stroke wasn't enough to sell the bike, and Kawasaki called it quits and cut their losses on wasting their time and money with producing the bike.
There was a time when two strokes were the only bike being used. Do you think all of the riders liked those bikes too? Or they chose them because they were the ONLY game in town?
I think not everyone liked the lack of low end power and the abrupt snap of top end power, but if they wanted to ride SX...they had to get used to it.
Likewise, if the support is behind the thumper, and we are now seeing AMA grooming tracks to be thumper friendly....I think a lot of guys are just accepting that the thumper is being given a clear advantage and they would be wise to fall in line. Despite thier personal preferences.
McGrath clearly prefers a 2 stroke. But recently he just traded up. Like you said, if 96%of the field is using them, maybe there is something to it.
Micah
I think not everyone liked the lack of low end power and the abrupt snap of top end power, but if they wanted to ride SX...they had to get used to it.
Likewise, if the support is behind the thumper, and we are now seeing AMA grooming tracks to be thumper friendly....I think a lot of guys are just accepting that the thumper is being given a clear advantage and they would be wise to fall in line. Despite thier personal preferences.
McGrath clearly prefers a 2 stroke. But recently he just traded up. Like you said, if 96%of the field is using them, maybe there is something to it.
Micah
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,504
- 19
if it was all about sales and what the factories wanted to sell, they'd quit making 2 strokes.
But, they obviously still sell them, and they sell 4 strokes. They don't give a rip who rides what. If Reed thought he could win on a YZ250, he'd be on it. Same with Bubs and the Leprechaun.
If its all about sales, how come almost every privateer is on a CRF450? Honda isn't telling THEM what to ride.
But, they obviously still sell them, and they sell 4 strokes. They don't give a rip who rides what. If Reed thought he could win on a YZ250, he'd be on it. Same with Bubs and the Leprechaun.
If its all about sales, how come almost every privateer is on a CRF450? Honda isn't telling THEM what to ride.
- Aug 3, 2004
- 1,003
- 0
I agree 100% with what Wardy says.
- Aug 2, 2000
- 13,504
- 19
brown noserMasterphil said:
nikki
Moto Junkie
- Apr 21, 2000
- 5,802
- 1
Another key example that manufacturers are still trying to push 2-strokes (not thumpers) is:
(1) Schoolboy class = 125 2-stroke only rule. They might say it's for the kids' safety - I don't buy that one bit, it's because it's one of their last hopes to sell 125's. I wonder what Kawasaki, who has no '06 125, thinks about this new rule.
(2) The 144cc band-aid. Another ploy to try to sell 125's, then have riders sink $600+ into getting it punched out, then try to complete with the 250F on the track.
So if the manufacturers are changing rules to try to get people to purchase 125's again, why isn't anyone forcing one of their salaried pro riders to ride a 125 and try to win some MX/SX races, since that's what the manufacturers do? Probably because that rider would tell them to get lost, and switch to another team. :laugh:
(1) Schoolboy class = 125 2-stroke only rule. They might say it's for the kids' safety - I don't buy that one bit, it's because it's one of their last hopes to sell 125's. I wonder what Kawasaki, who has no '06 125, thinks about this new rule.
(2) The 144cc band-aid. Another ploy to try to sell 125's, then have riders sink $600+ into getting it punched out, then try to complete with the 250F on the track.
So if the manufacturers are changing rules to try to get people to purchase 125's again, why isn't anyone forcing one of their salaried pro riders to ride a 125 and try to win some MX/SX races, since that's what the manufacturers do? Probably because that rider would tell them to get lost, and switch to another team. :laugh:
nikki said:
I have quite a mix of moto bikes in my shop some mine and some of friends. I cannot agree that the 4stroke bike requires less maintenance than the 2 stroke bikes. Preventative maintenance alone I can do 2-3 2strokes vs. 1 4stroke bike.
For time between overhauls/cost the red 250 4T bikes are the worse, the green 250F is next, then we get to the orange 450, then the RM 250 and then the rest of the orange and green 2t bikes.
For the consumable parts the RM 250 sees the toughest duty, you may have seen it in "The Last Man Standing race" video. It uses the most tires, brakes, fuel, etc. due to the "service". The orange 250 xc is second in this category, then the orange 450. What is really disappointing is two red bikes are on their 3rd or 4th set of tires, yet have required significant overhauls. The green 250F doesnt get played with much, and when it does, someones day is usually ruined. I got to talk that boy into selling that thing.
I understand from friends that the blue thumpers are the way to go from a standpoint of Time Between Overhauls, however I dont like the way they turn. I also read that the 06 has that problem solved.
By the way a typical ride/race day is 2hrs. for a short day.
I wonder - what would happen to the sport in terms of bike choice if the AMA decided to do one of the following:
Restrict 4T Engine sizes to the same as that of the 2T. 125 class is 125cc period. No matter if you use a 2stroke or 4stroke. and same for 250s. BUT - weight break the bikes so that the power to weight ratio comes out the same between the two. Would people choose torque over HP? weight over power delivery?
(BTW - This is what they do at the local track)
Or
Increase the 2T bikes to 250s & 450s and weight restrict them in the same way to keep power to weight ratio the same?
Other than I'm crazy, what do you think?
Restrict 4T Engine sizes to the same as that of the 2T. 125 class is 125cc period. No matter if you use a 2stroke or 4stroke. and same for 250s. BUT - weight break the bikes so that the power to weight ratio comes out the same between the two. Would people choose torque over HP? weight over power delivery?
(BTW - This is what they do at the local track)
Or
Increase the 2T bikes to 250s & 450s and weight restrict them in the same way to keep power to weight ratio the same?
Other than I'm crazy, what do you think?
Someone said:
two strokes are more power efficiant per cc, were Four strokes are more fuel efficiant (cleaner burning), but don't put out the same amount of power per CC as two strokes...
Now you could argue that two strokes should be allowed more displacement, but equal to four strokes, no because they just are not equal cc for cc...
maybe 310cc for super cross , and 165cc for lites... But the fact is two strokes are gross polluters, like it or not they will soon be gone...
Honestly, I think that if they allowed two-strokes up to 380cc in the 250 class, and up to 175cc in the 125 class, the thumpers would still rule. What would you rather ride: a KTM 380 or a CRF450? The thumpers have such usable power, they would still dominate. Personally, I'm sorry to see the age of the two-strokes over, but it probably is. Maybe we'll see the Two-Stroke National Championships one day soon, with retired national stars competing for the title.
If AMA allowed 2T bikes to be punched out at ALL.....and if those bikes became faster. You would see people dropping $600 on head mods all day long to take the advantage. Just like you are seeing people kick their 2T to the curb for the thumper advantage.
It's nothing personal to the bike...each rider wants to win. If they were told that the Kawi's would be given a weight handicap...guess what. No one would ride a Kawi. Not because it's a bad bike, but because the ruling would make it disadvantageous.
Sounds like the only solution is to produce a Rotary engine SX bike. :)
Micah
It's nothing personal to the bike...each rider wants to win. If they were told that the Kawi's would be given a weight handicap...guess what. No one would ride a Kawi. Not because it's a bad bike, but because the ruling would make it disadvantageous.
Sounds like the only solution is to produce a Rotary engine SX bike. :)
Micah
I couldn't read all seventy some replies, I don't have enough time. I am not new to the sport, but haven’t been in it for thirty years. But I swear, if I would of had a black and white T.V that would have looked just like Excitebike. I know it’s SuperCross, but the name change should have been to Excitebike. Even though the racing is close, I guess I’m more of a outdoor track, guy.
The two-stroke verses four-stroke thing is simple. If you work for someone, you might have some choice or input. But I doubt you have the final decision. I think the old “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday”, still holds true for Corporations. The vast majority of patrons are buying four-strokes. Two-strokes still have a marketplace, and until they are extinct the will be produced with BNG, and minor upgrades. What the front-runners ride, the back-markers (not knocking anyone, they are fast) will ride as well. Just to keep pace.
Like I have said before, I might be wrong. I’ve been wrong twice today already.
The two-stroke verses four-stroke thing is simple. If you work for someone, you might have some choice or input. But I doubt you have the final decision. I think the old “Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday”, still holds true for Corporations. The vast majority of patrons are buying four-strokes. Two-strokes still have a marketplace, and until they are extinct the will be produced with BNG, and minor upgrades. What the front-runners ride, the back-markers (not knocking anyone, they are fast) will ride as well. Just to keep pace.
Like I have said before, I might be wrong. I’ve been wrong twice today already.
- Mar 9, 2001
- 3,177
- 0
Ok, all kidding aside, unless 2 stroke technoligy steps up ( which it won't ) all 2s engines will be gone by 2010 Nation wide.
History;
In 1978 the EPA set a emission std, Calif. requested and recieved premission to set even lower stds because of the smog problem ( blame the Enviros ) this std is/was 3.5-5 times cleaner than the fed std.
In the Mid 80's the industry was threatened with a ban on all 2s engines for not meeting the std., In 1988 Ca ARB (CARB) set even a lower std and a complience date of 2004 for tier 1 and 2008 for tier 2, the industry did pretty well meeting this tier 1 deadline with the 4s bikes, but tier 2 is going to be tougher, it involves FI and cats
The Feds are set to adopt the Calif. std and has extended the complience date to 2006 for tier 1 and 2010 for tier 2
It will be imposible for 2s to meet the new stds, when tier 2 involves FI and cats, it's going to be interesting for the 4s eng. though
History;
In 1978 the EPA set a emission std, Calif. requested and recieved premission to set even lower stds because of the smog problem ( blame the Enviros ) this std is/was 3.5-5 times cleaner than the fed std.
In the Mid 80's the industry was threatened with a ban on all 2s engines for not meeting the std., In 1988 Ca ARB (CARB) set even a lower std and a complience date of 2004 for tier 1 and 2008 for tier 2, the industry did pretty well meeting this tier 1 deadline with the 4s bikes, but tier 2 is going to be tougher, it involves FI and cats
The Feds are set to adopt the Calif. std and has extended the complience date to 2006 for tier 1 and 2010 for tier 2
It will be imposible for 2s to meet the new stds, when tier 2 involves FI and cats, it's going to be interesting for the 4s eng. though
