Bolt On Horsepower or Snake Oil?

[bclapham]

Originally posted by swapmoto
Rich,
I'm interested in what you're saying.

swap, you do know that after talking to Rich, that you wont be allowed to wear an orange helmet and ride in the 50+ class at REM???? :thumb: :)

 

[truespode]

Originally posted by swapmoto
So then, should we dyno everything that we test?

No. However, it would be good to have asked them about the dyno numbers or mention in the review that there was no dyno results at that time. Of course, critics are always right :)

Anyway, not getting defensive here, just trying to stand behind our words and explain why we wrote them.

No problem. It is good that you stand behind your product the way you do. That is one reason it is at the top of my list of magazines.

Thanks

Ivan

 

[Zenith]

I know that the guys here would never make such claims... www.icatusa.com

They don't mention figures there but they still say "Dramatically increase’s power under load" and "Increase torque" which isn't much better when the dyno shows a 0.3HP loss of peak power and 0.1ft-lbs loss of peak torque...

 

[steve125]

Originally posted by Rich Rohrich
 



I applaud the fact that you seem much more willing to listen and interact with your readers than anyone else in the magazine business. How about taking the next step and changing the face of magazine testing. The days of a faceless test rider saying "it ran great at high rpm" without providing any quantitative explanation of what that really means are over. :thumb: 

Well said Rich!

Swap, I hope with Rich's help you will consider some "Transworld Technical" articles in the near future.

Marcus, I guess in all fairness, you should test the I-Cat at the track and see if you feel something the dyno missed. Yes Bruce I know you've been saying that all along. :moon:

 

[marcusgunby]

LOL its gone back now, i wouldnt pay that much for a product that wont show a power increase,even if it feels different on the track.Sorry guys you will have to buy one and ride it to see.I trust the dyno enough to know its not going to make my 125 keep up with a 450 ;)

 

[muddy226]

Well I'm no expert, but from the dyno graphs I have seen it would appear obvious that the main claim is a quicker power build i.e. throttle response, and not an increase in overall power, and this would account for the riding feel being different, but what I would like to know is how the quicker response is obtained, does it make "cleaner" burning ? As with many of these products you just need to be able to read the marketing talk properly. I'm very keen on gadgets and would have bought a power-now for my bike if they made one, despite the fact that it only makes more power at partial throttle openings, and usually if you want more power at a partial throttle opening the easiest way to get it is just to turn the twistgrip a bit more.

 

[nephron]

As muddy put it, everyone's dyno...including Marcus', has shown low rpm improvements in time mode (if correct, I suppose). That's obviously something you will feel on the track, but won't show up on a hp vs. rpm thing---my problem with it is the elusive advertising. You advertise a 10% increase in hp, and you'll soon have a lot of disillusioned riders, and this is almost criminal advertising. They probably got it on the bike, and after testing and retesting--couldn't find the power. Somehow they got around to focusing on hp vs. time, and they sold it as hp vs. rpm. Not only that, but they cut everything off to the right of 5 seconds.

I'm sure it does feel different on the track, but it may be the difference b/t gettin' the power down or not--depending on the surface.

 

[marcusgunby]

Right neph i have been thinking about this alot, and for a while i convinced myself if it makes power faster it must be better, but Karl Prestwood told me its basically how fast he presses the button.So i found a graph to prove this,  this graph shows the dyno run where i open the pv too early and it has a slight dip at 7K and the other is the perfect run where it opens at 8K-notice the time delay is huge -in fact its more than huge, but these 2 engines start the same until 7K, the graph doesnt show this at all.So the moral is ignore dynos that are against time. :aj:

 

also i forgot to say one reason for the difference is KP stayed at low revs for a few seconds to allow me to get ready to open the pv-witness the straight line for the start of the run-the only thing to look at is the angle of the curve and peak in time mode.The gap between the curves is meaningless.

 

[marcusgunby]

I know this is going too far but heres another example, my bike is making more midrange power than a Husky GP bike LOL.

 

[WWR]

Horsepower vs time: isn't that similar to the effect you get when reducing rotating mass on the bike? Like a lighter flywheel, rims, chain, etc.? I have seen weight reduced bikes pull average HP numbers, but definately outpull other bikes on the track.

Maybe this is why the GSXR750 pulls such great acceleration trap times with less hp than the liter bikes, and why the NSR is so quick at a 50-90hp deficit compared to the big machines?

Just a thought. It is very interesting that an ignition divice could make an engine pull better like this with no dyno indication.

 

[nephron]

lol Marcus, I seem to have Shepard pie all over my mug. :)

 

[nephron]

It is very interesting that an ignition divice could make an engine pull better like this with no dyno indication.

...If it improves combustion efficiency, but I doubt ignition could do much on a 2 cycle? Flat top piston, hemispherical combustion chambers with a centrally located plug...theses are ideal conditions with even a 4 stroke in most circumstances.

I've always gotten this sense that with V8's, you really only need 'enough' ignition, and ignition upgrades are only really useful if you don't have 'enough' for your application--like a 30lb boosted big block on nitrous with 130cc chambers. Which is seemingly also why a 700hp bbc can and does run VERY well on a slightly modified HEI.

Does any of that make any sense? I'll read it later. ;)

 

[stimps]

I've just fitted one to my Yz250 and messed about connecting it riding, ripping it out etc to get a true back to back. There is a noticable difference in the way the motor runs in the low and mid throttle openings. With it fitted the pick up from small throttle openings feels much better. The engine feels healthier down low and comes out of corners where you can't use all the power more controllably. I would say the difference is not massive but it is a difference. I have an ex Yamaha Cadburys/langcourt bike that is a bit of an animal with ported barrel/ carb etc. This seems to have lessened the hit as it comes on the pipe. Top end is still awesome as ever.
We bought three at a show so have them also fitted to a CRF450 and a CR250(not tested yet). The CRF450 also feels fitter but these are all just riding impressions. Hopefully of some interest. cheers

 

[DEANSFASTWAY]

Nephron I hear what youre saying. were running a Dirt mod with a BBC and one night we threw the alt belt and ran the motor on battery for guite a bit of a 50 lapper . The battery was dead at end of race but we finished . It was a MSD system though. And the car was popping quite a bit and flaming a bit but the car went top ten. Running gasoline .

 

[tedkxkdx]

I bought one and liked it so much I sent one to Marcus to test. I was very surprised by the results he had as well. I have a track and invite any one to come test the Icat for free. I know I don't have a mx bike but my kdx 96 has had a lot of money put into it for performance. I really liked the icat over my vforceII purchase. The bike accelerates quicker and pulls wheelies much better.
It seems that most people are not going to be satisfied by any one person's opinions, just facts. Icat does hold two world-wide patents on the product and I will press the company to produce more research data and publish their patents. But in all honesty, I trusted/learned about the product from TWMX and was stoked to see that icat HQ was just down the road from me. I bought it and liked it so dynoing is no need to me. I trust the seat of my pants. Icat did not start out in motor sport so they are new to the game of performance-hungry junkies.

 

[MrLuckey]

A question I would have to ask of the folks that thought it made the bike feel better is whether the bikes were jetted spot on in the first place? Is this thing cleaning up sloppily jetted bikes only or does it make a difference no matter what?

 

[stimps]

That could well be the case with mine. Being an ex team bike it is obviously set up for 100% riding mostly at wide open throttle. I reckon the most difference is in the lower ranges and part throttle where it could be helping a rich running condtition. Perhaps the dyno testing would show a change if repeated at various throttle openings. I know with road bikes we used to see quite substantial differences(on dyno) in a full throttle run wide open in one gear, compared with runnnng thorugh the gears. Through the gears would show the dips in power due to jetting as the throttle is reapplyed that did not appear in WOT. If not it was cheap and I like it so far. Will try one on a CR250 tommorow and post thoughts.

 

[marcusgunby]

Mr Lucky i was thinking the exact same thing today, my rm was jetted for summer and the pilot was very lean until i put the airscrew to 0.75 turns, so mine definatly isnt rich on the low speed.I do think its helping clean up jetting issues, i know the airscrew can make more power difference than any bolt on product, and it doesnt show well on the dyno unless you get a lean bog.

 

[Jaybird]

I agree that the jetting issue is one that has to be spot-on before any additional product can be fairly tested.
How many are really spot-on when they test? I bet the number of riders who think they are,way outnumber the number of riders that actually are.

 

[tedkxkdx]

I think it is inherent that it cleans up some jetting issues. I took one to a go cart track and had the British champions team run one. They had been fouling plugs on the line waiting for the start and with an icat it did not foul any more. Icat claims better/more complete burn of fuel so it just has to be helping in that respect. I also think that the more modifications you have done the better this product works. Like a "cherry on the top" effect. Transworld even thought it made more of a difference on a modified bike. I could see in the future that a paradigm shift will occur. Buy a bike, replace flimsy steel bars and put an icat on to start. Used bikes will have a selling point of comes with icat fitted. Give it a couple years and it will be as common place as FMF or Pro-circuit.
Time to ride in Sunny England. Gotta love these summer-like days in winter.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Originally posted by tedkxkdx
could see in the future that a paradigm shift will occur. Buy a bike, replace flimsy steel bars and put an icat on to start.

That might be the funniest thing I've ever read in this forum. Thanks for making my morning. :thumb:

 

[markymark77]

Still waiting for some conclusive testing results on this product. SO far it seems like the average Joe rider who tries it, feel they do notice a difference. But why? Im not convinced yet. Just seems like if it helped out that much that every racer would be all over it. Im not seeing that.

Still waiting for some reliable data :flame:

 

[Slamnek]

Hey man, i just read an article on the ICAT in the new Inside Motocross mag. The guy tested it on a CR 250 (not sure what year, most likely an 04) and he said that it gave him bottom end power that he never new his bike had.

 

[Rich Rohrich]

Hey man, i just read an article on the ICAT in the new Inside Motocross mag. The guy tested it on a CR 250 (not sure what year, most likely an 04) and he said that it gave him bottom end power that he never new his bike had.

Well that's all the proof I NEED. :bang:

 

[2strok4fun]

Hey man, i just read an article on the ICAT in the new Inside Motocross mag. The guy tested it on a CR 250 (not sure what year, most likely an 04) and he said that it gave him bottom end power that he never new his bike had.

I just read that same dribble the other night.

They $how it a$ part of upgrade$ that i$ de$igned a$ a package and i$ not intentionally pandering to adverti$ing dollar$.

see I can be unbiased.....